Questioning D&C 9:7-9

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DarkJedi
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Re: Questioning D&C 9:7-9

Post by DarkJedi » 11 Jun 2017, 14:56

Roy wrote:
11 Jun 2017, 12:46
SilentDawning wrote:
10 Jun 2017, 06:54
I'm on the "comfort" model now. Brian Johnson mentioned that blessings comfort people, so even if they don't come to pass, the experience is a way you can help people ease suffering. I also think they are of value because they provide an opportunity to give advice to someone in a formal setting that they might not otherwise get, or ask for.
nibbler wrote:
10 Jun 2017, 19:42
There's a temptation to chase that divine stamp of approval to give us that comfort that we're doing the right thing and on the right track.
I agree but I believe that this is a feature and not a bug. Suppose that you are debating taking a new job and moving to a distant city. You study it out and weigh the pros and cons until you come to a decision. Then you take it to God in prayer to essentially bless/ratify what you had decided to do. Then you move forward with more confidence then you might otherwise have had. Certainly you do not want to be hasty, imprudent, or overconfident but nor do you want to be paralyzed with indecision, fear, and second guessing.
But such a case is what led to my faith crisis. Just saying.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Roy
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Re: Questioning D&C 9:7-9

Post by Roy » 12 Jun 2017, 09:16

DarkJedi wrote:
11 Jun 2017, 14:56
But such a case is what led to my faith crisis. Just saying.
Yes, basically what we are doing is building a narrative around your life that adds meaning to your life. This is a good thing generally. However, there does reach a point where the circumstances change and the narrative's assumptions are challenged. We can then come up with all sorts of patches to help align the narrative with what we are experiencing (maybe we weren't righteous enough, or maybe God is trying to test me or teach me something through hardship, or as nibbler pointed out maybe God allowed us to make the wrong choice in order to know for ourselves that it was wrong and double back to forevermore make the right choice). I have frequently read that instead of asking "Why is this happening to me?" one should reframe the question to "What can I learn from this?" To do so, I believe, moves us from a position of challenging narrative assumptions into a position of building patches for the incongruities.

Again this is generally a good thing. Abandoning your life narrative is painful and should not be undertaken lightly (especially if you do not have anything better to replace it with).
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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DarkJedi
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Re: Questioning D&C 9:7-9

Post by DarkJedi » 12 Jun 2017, 09:57

Roy wrote:
12 Jun 2017, 09:16
DarkJedi wrote:
11 Jun 2017, 14:56
But such a case is what led to my faith crisis. Just saying.
Yes, basically what we are doing is building a narrative around your life that adds meaning to your life. This is a good thing generally. However, there does reach a point where the circumstances change and the narrative's assumptions are challenged. We can then come up with all sorts of patches to help align the narrative with what we are experiencing (maybe we weren't righteous enough, or maybe God is trying to test me or teach me something through hardship, or as nibbler pointed out maybe God allowed us to make the wrong choice in order to know for ourselves that it was wrong and double back to forevermore make the right choice). I have frequently read that instead of asking "Why is this happening to me?" one should reframe the question to "What can I learn from this?" To do so, I believe, moves us from a position of challenging narrative assumptions into a position of building patches for the incongruities.

Again this is generally a good thing. Abandoning your life narrative is painful and should not be undertaken lightly (especially if you do not have anything better to replace it with).
Ten years ago I probably would have been tempted to punch you if you said that to me. I was pretty tired of hearing such crap then. I'm not saying you aren't right, but my point of view then was much different than my point of view now. In answer to "What can I learn from this?" though then answer is the same now as it was then. I learned that God is not what many in the LDS church believe and teach he is; God cannot be trusted (if he even exists); and emotion is no way to judge when something is true or correct.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Roy
Posts: 4093
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Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Questioning D&C 9:7-9

Post by Roy » 12 Jun 2017, 12:40

DarkJedi wrote:
12 Jun 2017, 09:57
In answer to "What can I learn from this?" though then answer is the same now as it was then. I learned that God is not what many in the LDS church believe and teach he is; God cannot be trusted (if he even exists); and emotion is no way to judge when something is true or correct.
Just to be clear, I myself came here after an assumptive world collapse after the stillbirth of my daughter. However, I have come to realize that not everybody that loses a child in death ends up having a faith crisis. I honestly do not know what differentiates those that have FC after traumatic experiences from those that don't. I expect that there are a host of factors and that conscious choice makes up some small portion of that. (I am a proponent of limited choice wherein our choices are limited both by external [limited options etc.] and internal [the lens through which we interpret information, our genetic predispositions, etc.] limitations.
Roy wrote:
12 Jun 2017, 09:16
I have frequently read that instead of asking "Why is this happening to me?" one should reframe the question to "What can I learn from this?" To do so, I believe, moves us from a position of challenging narrative assumptions into a position of building patches for the incongruities.
So when I hear that advice I understand the person to be saying that they have no good answers for "Why is this happening to me?" They see the very question as unproductive at best and dangerous at worst. Dangerous because it challenges one of the basic assumptions of the narrative that God blesses those he favors i.e. the "just world hypothesis." If the individual can reframe the question into "What can I learn from this?" or "How can I grow from this?" Then they can be well on their way to patching the inconsistency (IOW "The experience made me a better person in the long run therefore maybe it was part of God's plan for me all along").
Roy wrote:
12 Jun 2017, 09:16
Again this is generally a good thing. Abandoning your life narrative is painful and should not be undertaken lightly (especially if you do not have anything better to replace it with).
I certainly believe that there comes a time when abandoning a life narrative is the smart and right choice. I also believe that most of us do not choose to abandon a life narrative but rather find that it has crumbled beneath us. I merely intend to say that for those whose assumptive realities make their life meaningful and fulfilling, patching inconsistencies with platitudes and/or apologetics is perfectly useful and understandable.

To say it another way - The LDS framework works beautifully until it doesn't. People for whom it works beautifully can reasonably be expected to try to get the LDS framework to continue to work for them for as long as possible.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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nibbler
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Re: Questioning D&C 9:7-9

Post by nibbler » 12 Jun 2017, 13:02

Roy wrote:
12 Jun 2017, 12:40
Roy wrote:
12 Jun 2017, 09:16
I have frequently read that instead of asking "Why is this happening to me?" one should reframe the question to "What can I learn from this?" To do so, I believe, moves us from a position of challenging narrative assumptions into a position of building patches for the incongruities.
So when I hear that advice I understand the person to be saying that they have no good answers for "Why is this happening to me?" They see the very question as unproductive at best and dangerous at worst. Dangerous because it challenges one of the basic assumptions of the narrative that God blesses those he favors i.e. the "just world hypothesis." If the individual can reframe the question into "What can I learn from this?" or "How can I grow from this?" Then they can be well on their way to patching the inconsistency (IOW "The experience made me a better person in the long run therefore maybe it was part of God's plan for me all along").
When I initially read the quote you quoted in the quote above ...quote... the serenity prayer came to the forefront of my mind:

God, give me grace to accept with serenity
the things that cannot be changed,
Courage to change the things
which should be changed,
and the Wisdom to distinguish
the one from the other.
"Why is this happening to me?" Often if we reach the point of asking this question it's because of a situation that is outside of our control. Reframing it as "What can I learn from this?" can reorient someone's thoughts back on what can be controlled... which sometimes is little more than restraining from punching someone. :P
I hereby place an order for one cheese pizza. -nibbler

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