Are we in Hell?

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dande48
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Re: Are we in Hell?

Post by dande48 » 01 May 2017, 14:22

People die. If we're referring to heaven/hell as the place or state we end up in after we die, then we are not in hell. But what I think you're asking is, whether or not we had a life before this one, and our existance in this world is punishment for the decisions we made in the past. That also seems unlikely, as the righteous sometimes suffer, while the wicked go unpunished. There is extraordinary disparity in this world, with little regards to "good" and "evil". Could it be purgatory? Perhaps. But infants still die; so I doubt it.

I think it's far more likely that you are the only person who truly "exists" in this universe; and that other people are no more or less real than those you find in a video game. That this world's experiences are tailored specifically for you, and everything else is meant to reinforce the "Creator's" designs for you. Certainly, this would not be outside the scope of God? And it would allow all of God's children to have the specific experiences He wanted them to have, without having to adjust according to the agency of the other children.

But when it comes down to it, we have no memory of what happened before we were born, and no evidence for what happens after. In the end, I don't think it matters too much.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Are we in Hell?

Post by DarkJedi » 02 May 2017, 08:05

I do agree with you Sam that Google and other tech companies know way more than most people realize and they also don't know what they do with it. Here in the States we also have the NSA which has huge stockpiles of data on everybody. They know who you call, where you go, etc. - and much of that comes about the same way Google gets it.

Are things worse though? In SS this past Sunday it was lesson 16 on the Sabbath. There was some discussion about how Sabbath observance has gotten worse in the past 30 years or so, what with stores being open on Sundays and all. The teacher precipitated the discussion and even participated, but then, bless her heart, referenced an online resource about why D&C 59 may have been give from the electronic version of the manual. Here's an excerpt, referring to Jackson County, MO:
One custom that was especially different was Sabbath day observance. A later JS history characterizes many of the residents as “the basest of men” who “had fled from the face of civilized society, to the frontier country to escape the hand of justice, in their midnight revels, their sabbath breaking, horseracing, and gambling.”
A traveler to western Missouri in 1833 made a similar observation, stating that “the only indications of its being Sunday” in the area was “the unusual Gambling & noise, & assemblies around taverns.”
Worse? Yes, definitely worse than here (where I live) and now.

The whole reference tot he above quote is here: http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... ical-intro
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Roadrunner
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Re: Are we in Hell?

Post by Roadrunner » 02 May 2017, 09:19

SamBee wrote:
30 Apr 2017, 13:40
Are we in Hell?
It's a thought provoking topic but I have to answer - no we're not in hell. At least I'm personally not in hell currently, although I know some people are living in hell. Having served a mission which at the time was the poorest country in the western hemisphere, I know many of those people lived in hell.

However, I believe that as a whole, the human race is much much better off than we were even 150 years ago which is a blink in history. I'm middle class in the USA and it's possibly my lifestyle is better than the Queen of England 50 years ago. Ability to communicate almost anywhere on the planet instantaneously, clean food and water in abundance, relative freedom, better healthcare than in the past, and many other things make me think that if this is hell, then the hell we advertise at church isn't that bad. As a species, we humans have our problems to be sure, but I personally believe we are improving.

I've lived through periods of personal hell, as does everybody. I've also have periods of much joy and happiness.

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SamBee
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Re: Are we in Hell?

Post by SamBee » 02 May 2017, 10:24

I'm middle class in the USA and it's possibly my lifestyle is better than the Queen of England 50 years ago. Ability to communicate almost anywhere on the planet instantaneously, clean food and water in abundance, relative freedom, better healthcare than in the past, and many other things make me think that if this is hell, then the hell we advertise at church isn't that bad. As a species, we humans have our problems to be sure, but I personally believe we are improving.
We believe we have far more freedom and far more choice than we have. Whether it's branded items off the shelf of a store or a political election, the choices at hand are owned and controlled by a handful of people. I saw a flow chart of who owns various products from shampoo to gravy and most of the names were owned by fewer than half a dozen companies - often well hidden by shell companies and subsidiaries under different names. These are the people who pay for political policies. They dictate most of our diet and our rulers.

And in some parts of the world such companies kill to maintain their power.

Most people in the world cannot communicate across the world. They do not have phones or computers, or even televisions. This is still the case in Africa and parts of Asia.

As for healthcare, I think DNA profiling is about to make insurance a lot more complicated in the near future. We have socialized medicine here but our bought politicians are trying to privatize it.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

NightSG
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Re: Are we in Hell?

Post by NightSG » 02 May 2017, 13:47

SamBee wrote:
01 May 2017, 09:44
Samsung also admitted last year that their TVs and phones can be used to listen in to people without their consent.
Which is why it's good to talk to yourself the way some people overshare on Facebook. Just in case someone is spying on you and bored.

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SamBee
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Re: Are we in Hell?

Post by SamBee » 02 May 2017, 14:03

Jokes aside, I really don't think people realize what we're walking into with this mass surveillance... I mentioned this to a friend, he thought I was talking like a paranoid schizophrenic, and "doncha know how many people they'd need to monitor everyone?"

I just replied... "they don't need people anymore. Computer storage and word triggers."

All in a searchable database.

At this point the usual question "who are 'they'?" ;)

The prospect of future citizens being tagged and tracked 24/7 is not far away. We already microchip pets and have tracking devices in our cars and phones. We are most of the way there.

Such a conversation usually falls back into "it's a democracy" and it won't happen here. In fact, most countries are a few weeks away from a potential dictatorship and all it takes is careful manouevering of resources and casus belli.

The USA's big monitoring operation is in Utah I believe. The computing power there is massive, and American enterprises such as Facebook and Google are probably all too willing to hand over the data.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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SilentDawning
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Re: Are we in Hell?

Post by SilentDawning » 07 May 2017, 15:42

This idea really has me thinking...we are told that the telestial kingdom is even better than earth as we know it. And the telestial kingdom is where all the evil people go. Pretty damning for this earthly existence, isn't it?

I've been watching an endless stream of Forensic Files (a TV show that describes how science has caught and convicted murderers. 21 minutes and you get all the facts fast). You watch 20 or 30 of those episodes and it seems to exaggerate the amount of evil in the world -- murderers, adulterers, rapists, serial killers, mentally ill people, terrorists, robbers, thieves, poisoners, evil attorneys, gold diggers, prostitutes, drug addicts, husband and wife killers, arsonists, overzealous policemen....After watching the show I wondered how I've survived so many decades without being a victim of violent crime.

And I fear for my children, particularly my young attractive daughter.

We may well be in a form of hell right now, but for some, it can be quite a fulfilling experience, and we know it's not permanent. There are still a lot of good people, and most are good, in my view, so I don't think we are in hell just yet. But elements of hell exist on earth. I think a true hell, will be a lot like being a maximum security prison full of narcissists and people who lack empathy. Or in a state of constant pain or a quadraplegic or person with ALS who can't move. Or living in the midst of human trafficking or an impoverished, crime ridden area of the world where even good people are forced to steal to survive. That is hell on earth.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

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LookingHard
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Re: Are we in Hell?

Post by LookingHard » 08 May 2017, 05:56

My wife and I watched "Queen of Katwe" on Netflix this weekend. It is a rags to modest living (not "riches") story. My wife commented what an uplifting story it was. She was taken back on my comment that, "it was great to see one family get out of abject poverty, but I can only think about the millions of others that are stuck and have no means to even improve their life." It is just the way I am.

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SamBee
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Re: Are we in Hell?

Post by SamBee » 08 May 2017, 11:03

There are a lot of reasons for poverty - economic exploitation, wars, agricultural collapse (drought, disease etc), overpopulation, lack of work - but yes the extreme version is hellish. I think a lot of people in the developed world forget about how poor the majority of humans are... yet the odd thing is that some of them are happy - not happy about their circumstances obviously, but have loving families, a vibrant culture etc, things not universal in the west.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

NightSG
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Re: Are we in Hell?

Post by NightSG » 08 May 2017, 11:59

SilentDawning wrote:
07 May 2017, 15:42
This idea really has me thinking...we are told that the telestial kingdom is even better than earth as we know it. And the telestial kingdom is where all the evil people go. Pretty damning for this earthly existence, isn't it?
Not necessarily; while some of us would be blissfully happy with eternity in any place that lacks disease, scarcity and pain, if everyone gets to keep their ego, many people will create their own hell even there, simply from the belief that they should be in a higher kingdom.

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