Are we in Hell?

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SamBee
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Are we in Hell?

Post by SamBee » 30 Apr 2017, 13:40

Interesting idea, kinda the reverse of our theology, that we have failed the test and that we are currently in Hell, purgatory or spirit prison.

It is an idea which goes back centuries.

Against:
I see great beauty in the world and universe, you just have to know where to look. Although there are many cruel people, there are also many good people. We are also happy at least some of the time.

For:
This can be a brutal world and universe, containing disasters, parasites, viciousness amongst other creatures, weather issues. Our rulers through history have been mostly tyrants and most people here are followers i.e. the type of people who would cave in and go to Hell. A lot of human existence is suffering.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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Heber13
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Re: Are we in Hell?

Post by Heber13 » 30 Apr 2017, 14:21

Perhaps there are degrees of hell, since there are degrees of heaven.

Hell, to me, is not being in the presence of God. Since we have limited acces to God now, I would say we are in a state of hell. But we have flashes of God's spirit at times, so perhaps there are darker hells than what we are currently in.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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SamBee
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Re: Are we in Hell?

Post by SamBee » 30 Apr 2017, 14:29

I see aspects of good and bad around us, but there is something hellish about this world sometimes both in its natural state and those with power and influence.

I agree if there are Hell realms (as stated in Buddhism), there might be harsher ones as we do see wonderful things in this one - the Pacific islands, the Norwegian fjords, Monument Valley, the Andes....

However, it could be much worse. I see some things getting worse - climate change on an epic scale, the prospect of a workforce entirely replaced by machines and surplus to requirements, total surveillance (already far advanced through social media, satnav/gps, listening devices such as Cortana/Alexa)... and of course old school brutality.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Roy
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Re: Are we in Hell?

Post by Roy » 30 Apr 2017, 14:53

Heber13 wrote:
30 Apr 2017, 14:21
Hell, to me, is not being in the presence of God. Since we have limited acces to God now, I would say we are in a state of hell.
I suggested in EQ once that we are thus spiritually dead, but there was strong resistance.
SamBee wrote:
30 Apr 2017, 14:29
I see aspects of good and bad around us,
It is both a heaven and a hell. Since we believe in opposition in all things, perhaps it could not be heavenly without some parts being hellish. Perhaps heaven involves our working together to improve our collective circumstances.

I recently saw the movie Jackie and was drawn to some dialogue:
The Priest: There comes a time in man's search for meaning when one realises that there are no answers. And when you come to that horrible, unavoidable realization, you accept it or you kill yourself. Or you simply stop searching... I have lived a blessed life. And yet every night, when I climb into bed, turn off the lights, and stare in to the dark, I wonder... Is this all there is?

Jackie Kennedy: You wonder?

The Priest: Every soul on this planet does. But then, when morning comes, we all wake up and make a pot of coffee.

Jackie Kennedy: Why do we bother?

The Priest: Because we do. You did this morning, you will again tomorrow. But God, in his infinite wisdom, has made sure it is just enough for us.
Life, with its vistas and valleys, with its ecstasy and anguish, with its fevered bustle and peaceful calm - both heaven and hell, is enough for me.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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DarkJedi
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Re: Are we in Hell?

Post by DarkJedi » 30 Apr 2017, 20:08

I posited that same idea once in a class several years ago Roy and got essentially the same response. The common definition of spiritual death is being separated from God. There is no question we are physically separated from God here, so it is a logical conclusion that we are therefore spiritually dead. From another point of view, however, many believe we have contact with God and are therefore not separated. I live on the east coast, my daughter lives on the west coast. We text and call frequently, almost daily. But we are separated, texts and calling do not change the physical distance between us. I feel the same about God.

I agree with Heber, yes, we are in a state of hell. in my mind hell is only a state of being anyway and not a physical or spiritual place.

This thread reminded me of the TV show "The Good Place." I can't tell you why or I'd spoil it for you. :?
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Curt Sunshine
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Re: Are we in Hell?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 30 Apr 2017, 20:58

I believe Heaven, Hell, and all the nuances of the two are conditions not places. I believe we are striving for a condition, not a physical destination. I believe that is basic Mormon theology, and it is one of my favorite aspects.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SilentDawning
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Re: Are we in Hell?

Post by SilentDawning » 01 May 2017, 06:06

Ray DeGraw wrote:
30 Apr 2017, 20:58
I believe Heaven, Hell, and all the nuances of the two are conditions not places. I believe we are striving for a condition, not a physical destination. I believe that is basic Mormon theology, and it is one of my favorite aspects.
John Milton penned a phrase, in Paradise Lost, that defined hell. Satan said "Which way I fly is hell -- myself am hell". Hell may well be a state of mind.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

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Orson
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Re: Are we in Hell?

Post by Orson » 01 May 2017, 09:07

"Are we in Hell?"

Yes of course. We are also in Heaven. One cannot exist without the other: there is no darkness without light...
My avatar - both physical and spiritual.

I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.

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Heber13
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Re: Are we in Hell?

Post by Heber13 » 01 May 2017, 09:30

SamBee wrote:
30 Apr 2017, 14:29
I see some things getting worse
I can't tell. There are times I think I would not want to live at any other time of life...I like my samsung galaxy, I guess. It's a pretty good time to be here...and then...lest we rest on our laurels...the evils of the world are so many and so serious it is frightening.

I think according to our teachings, this is all a temporary state right now, right? Perhaps part is hell and part heaven as people stated...but just enough of each to keep us engaged and keep us learning and making choices and efforts.

This temporary state has enough to keep us wondering. Without perfect knowledge, there is still a constant space for choice and faith.

Hell in the next life as a permanent state of being?? What will that be like?
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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SamBee
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Re: Are we in Hell?

Post by SamBee » 01 May 2017, 09:44

http://thehackernews.com/2015/02/smart- ... g.html?m=1
Samsung's Smart TV uses voice recognition technology to enable voice commands, but its privacy policy defined by the company says "if your spoken words include personal or other sensitive information, that information will be captured and transmitted to a third party."

In other words, Samsung's Voice Recognition feature is always listening you, unless you deactivate it. So these internet-enabled smart devices can be exploited to reveal a wealth of personal information.
Samsung also admitted last year that their TVs and phones can be used to listen in to people without their consent.

It's not just this though, the signs are between phones that listen to and watch you, Google which collates everything you do and where you go, GPS, CCTV & satellites, we are sleepwalking into a total surveillance culture.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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