Spiritual Support during Unorthodoxy

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SilentDawning
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Re: Spiritual Support during Unorthodoxy

Post by SilentDawning » 26 Apr 2017, 14:18

Have you ever struggled and struggled to understand something and finally it clicked in a way that made total sense? Kind of like what SD described with his class. When that happens to me in my professional life or in my spiritual, the feelings of clarity, light, and excitement ("burning in the bosom?") are the same. And that has often been my feelings as I've come to unorthodox conclusions for myself, through thoughtful study, pondering, and my own personal version of "prayer."
Not when it comes to the church. In real life, many times. There was a quote I read years ago that you need to empower people when you delegate, but I saw that fail so many times. I learned that the principle only applies when you delegate to talented, committed, well resourced people. When they are not committed, lack skills, and have no backup/mentor, then that expression about delegation is not accurate.

Same with the expression "Delegation takes discipline". I understand what it means no on SO many levels....those epiphanies are great, but I wouldn't call them spiritual.

I will say this -- taking the path I have taken has been a relief. First, I don't have to do so many things that I found unfulfilling and a waste of time as a TBM. I feel self-directed, and when I give money to causes, I feel like a REAL philanthropist. I love it. I used to pray in faith for things to happen, but felt like you do when you sip on a straw and the cup is empty. I don't feel that way anymore when I pray, as my prayers are not about faith or inviting the powers of heaven to rain their blessings upon me. They are about thanks and sharing my feelings and that's it -- maybe some prayers for safety for my family, but all that happens with a grain of salt. We all know evil falls on the good and the bad alike.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

DoubtingTom
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Re: Spiritual Support during Unorthodoxy

Post by DoubtingTom » 26 Apr 2017, 16:06

For myself, it's merely a mind game to try and determine whether the emotions I feel when things are making sense and are clear are from God or just human emotions. The point for me is that if those emotions feel good, are exciting, and make me feel happier about life, then I seek after the cause of those emotions and stop worrying about the ultimate source. They are good for my well-being, so they are good for me. Even if the ideas provoking those emotions are unorthodox, they lead me to do good things.

ydeve
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Re: Spiritual Support during Unorthodoxy

Post by ydeve » 26 Apr 2017, 22:11

SilentDawning wrote:
25 Apr 2017, 06:26
Have you ever experienced spiritual support in your current path, even though it's not orthodox? And has your new path yet produced the happiness that tends to breed spirituality?
Yes, and yes.

It's also leading to me to resent more and more the school I attend. I just have to survive one more year...

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SilentDawning
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Re: Spiritual Support during Unorthodoxy

Post by SilentDawning » 27 Apr 2017, 02:04

DoubtingTom wrote:
26 Apr 2017, 16:06
For myself, it's merely a mind game to try and determine whether the emotions I feel when things are making sense and are clear are from God or just human emotions. The point for me is that if those emotions feel good, are exciting, and make me feel happier about life, then I seek after the cause of those emotions and stop worrying about the ultimate source. They are good for my well-being, so they are good for me. Even if the ideas provoking those emotions are unorthodox, they lead me to do good things.
The part in bold is where I am at right now. You said it better than I did previously.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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DarkJedi
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Re: Spiritual Support during Unorthodoxy

Post by DarkJedi » 27 Apr 2017, 07:10

SilentDawning wrote:
27 Apr 2017, 02:04
DoubtingTom wrote:
26 Apr 2017, 16:06
For myself, it's merely a mind game to try and determine whether the emotions I feel when things are making sense and are clear are from God or just human emotions. The point for me is that if those emotions feel good, are exciting, and make me feel happier about life, then I seek after the cause of those emotions and stop worrying about the ultimate source. They are good for my well-being, so they are good for me. Even if the ideas provoking those emotions are unorthodox, they lead me to do good things.
The part in bold is where I am at right now. You said it better than I did previously.
In the dark ages of flip books when I served a mission the oft asked question "how do we know it's the Spirit" was asked at a zone conference. The MPs wife, daughter of a very prominent GA at the time, fielded the question with something very much like "there's never any harm in doing good." It's hard to argue with that. I also appreciated Pres. Eyring in the recent face-to-face thing - he was somewhat frank about having had the question about whether it's the Spirit or not and answered that for him it's about peace. In other words, if it is accompanied by a feeling of peace it is likely of the Spirit.

Side note: while laying awake last night I realized Pres. Monson is the last apostle called before my membership in the church. I remember when Nelson and Oaks were called. I'm old. There was of course a huge gap between TSM's call and RMN's and DHO's.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

DoubtingTom
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Re: Spiritual Support during Unorthodoxy

Post by DoubtingTom » 27 Apr 2017, 10:20

DarkJedi wrote:
27 Apr 2017, 07:10

In the dark ages of flip books when I served a mission the oft asked question "how do we know it's the Spirit" was asked at a zone conference. The MPs wife, daughter of a very prominent GA at the time, fielded the question with something very much like "there's never any harm in doing good." It's hard to argue with that. I also appreciated Pres. Eyring in the recent face-to-face thing - he was somewhat frank about having had the question about whether it's the Spirit or not and answered that for him it's about peace. In other words, if it is accompanied by a feeling of peace it is likely of the Spirit.
It's easy for GAs to say if it's a feeling of peace it's of the Spirit as a general statement. I very much doubt they'd continue that train of thought if I told them I have felt feelings of peace that were unmistakeable to me as I've thought about how the Book of Mormon is not a literal history. I've also had feelings of peace with other very unorthodox thoughts and conclusions.

Now to me, I attribute those feelings to a human emotion that probably happens to a certain extent to everyone when things that were confusing before suddenly make much more sense, kind of like various puzzle pieces fitting neatly into place. I've felt those feelings when I thought through the gospel "logically" in my TBM days, and I have those feelings now with very different conclusions. I no longer worry about the source of those feelings because I think the most likely source is the human nature of emotions. I like to feel like I understand something, and when that understanding comes, I feel peace.

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Heber13
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Re: Spiritual Support during Unorthodoxy

Post by Heber13 » 27 Apr 2017, 10:28

DoubtingTom wrote:
27 Apr 2017, 10:20
I very much doubt they'd continue that train of thought if I told them I have felt feelings of peace that were unmistakeable to me as I've thought about how the Book of Mormon is not a literal history. I've also had feelings of peace with other very unorthodox thoughts and conclusions.
What do you think they would say if I told them:
I have peaceful feelings that drinking coffee and alcohol are ok in moderation. I want to use the test found in Mornoni 10, and I plan to try drinking on Friday nights and ask God to tell me if it is right.
Will that work? What would they say?
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

DoubtingTom
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Re: Spiritual Support during Unorthodoxy

Post by DoubtingTom » 27 Apr 2017, 11:51

Heber13 wrote:
27 Apr 2017, 10:28

What do you think they would say if I told them:
I have peaceful feelings that drinking coffee and alcohol are ok in moderation. I want to use the test found in Mornoni 10, and I plan to try drinking on Friday nights and ask God to tell me if it is right.
Will that work? What would they say?
For an organization to survive, there needs to be hard stops at certain points. It's ok to say that personal revelation is important when it's about what job to take, whom to marry, how to talk to your kids, etc. But when personal revelation trumps official church doctrines, then the official stance has to be "well that's not revelation from God then."

But how do they know? I don't think polygamy or D&C 132 came from God. I have felt very good about that conclusion. I also don't think blacks should ever have been banned from the priesthood. I don't think that came from God. In the 1960's people could be excommunicated or disfellowshipped if they were too outspoken about this, but now it's ok to say we were just wrong. But what if I was receiving personal revelation back then about this issue? Why was it wrong then but ok now? What if I feel I've received personal revelation about women in the priesthood today or about word of wisdom issues today? It may be officially wrong now, but the church could change its stance in another 50 years.

This is where things get messy, and the church as an institution has to draw the line. It's one of the things that makes organized religion challenging in general, but especially a church that stresses the importance and value of personal revelation, but then can turn around and say that revelation isn't valid if we don't like what it says to you.

I don't have a good answer for this and it's something that I struggle with continually.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Spiritual Support during Unorthodoxy

Post by DarkJedi » 27 Apr 2017, 11:53

I'm guessing what I'm describing as a feeling of peace and what you're describing are different Tom. I think that's all I can say about it because I don't think there are words. That's the problem with revelation, though, right? We are incapable of making feelings into words because of the human limitations of language.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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DarkJedi
Posts: 5168
Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: Spiritual Support during Unorthodoxy

Post by DarkJedi » 27 Apr 2017, 11:58

DoubtingTom wrote:
27 Apr 2017, 11:51
Heber13 wrote:
27 Apr 2017, 10:28

What do you think they would say if I told them:
I have peaceful feelings that drinking coffee and alcohol are ok in moderation. I want to use the test found in Mornoni 10, and I plan to try drinking on Friday nights and ask God to tell me if it is right.
Will that work? What would they say?
For an organization to survive, there needs to be hard stops at certain points. It's ok to say that personal revelation is important when it's about what job to take, whom to marry, how to talk to your kids, etc. But when personal revelation trumps official church doctrines, then the official stance has to be "well that's not revelation from God then."

But how do they know? I don't think polygamy or D&C 132 came from God. I have felt very good about that conclusion. I also don't think blacks should ever have been banned from the priesthood. I don't think that came from God. In the 1960's people could be excommunicated or disfellowshipped if they were too outspoken about this, but now it's ok to say we were just wrong. But what if I was receiving personal revelation back then about this issue? Why was it wrong then but ok now? What if I feel I've received personal revelation about women in the priesthood today or about word of wisdom issues today? It may be officially wrong now, but the church could change its stance in another 50 years.

This is where things get messy, and the church as an institution has to draw the line. It's one of the things that makes organized religion challenging in general, but especially a church that stresses the importance and value of personal revelation, but then can turn around and say that revelation isn't valid if we don't like what it says to you.

I don't have a good answer for this and it's something that I struggle with continually.
I think about Samuel the Lamanite in this case. The Nephites had a prophet during (and before and after) Samuel's time and it appears that their prophet (Nephi) was doing his job. It is not clear if he knew what Samuel knew and taught - but Samuel taught it, not Nephi. Yet Samuel and Nephi were both prophets, and Samuel's message was important.

I get it - there can only be one captain, one boss, one prophet (although I think the modern church is actually governed much more by committee than most think). I also think we need to be careful lest we miss our Samuels.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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