Jesus as Both Advocate and Judge - and We as Advocates

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nibbler
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Re: Jesus as Both Advocate and Judge - and We as Advocates

Post by nibbler » 02 Mar 2017, 08:43

My only point in the quoted comment was that considering your own judgement to be righteous may lead someone to become arrogant.

Love is a tricky mistress. I've heard love used as a justification in instances where people believe that they are saving people from themselves. The classic example is people actively fighting gay marriage and other gay rights because they don't want gay people to get the impression that homosexuality is okay. They feel they are helping because other people are "digging their own graves" so to speak.

In some instances that kind of love for people works out, in other cases it doesn't. Maybe there's an alternate word to describe that phenomenon.
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Orson
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Re: Jesus as Both Advocate and Judge - and We as Advocates

Post by Orson » 02 Mar 2017, 13:06

nibbler wrote:My only point in the quoted comment was that considering your own judgement to be righteous may lead someone to become arrogant.
Yes, I agree. Pride and arrogance is the risk and the challenge of mortality. Our call to "become" says we must be capable of pride, but then our task is to deny ourselves of any ungodliness. Many fail, we all fail, this is life.

nibbler wrote:Love is a tricky mistress. I've heard love used as a justification in instances where people believe that they are saving people from themselves. The classic example is people actively fighting gay marriage and other gay rights because they don't want gay people to get the impression that homosexuality is okay. They feel they are helping because other people are "digging their own graves" so to speak.
The way I see it: real Godly love involves listening, it cannot support an agenda, it cannot be conditional. Humans often do have errant understanding which leads to misplaced motivations etc. etc. We are prone to misdirect our love, but Godly Love is what we are called to emulate. This type of Love is righteousness, the impostor will "draw near with lips" but deny in the heart. It may wear a thin disguise of Christian intent but at the core it fails. Christian Love knows how to "lose it's own life" (and agenda) for the sake of righteousness.

The companion of real Love is humility, where arrogance is present Love is anemic.
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Curt Sunshine
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Re: Jesus as Both Advocate and Judge - and We as Advocates

Post by Curt Sunshine » 03 Mar 2017, 22:06

Yes, people often twist that verse to be about making distinctions and judging things or situations or actions. Of course, we have to do that. In context of the entire Sermmon on the Mount, however, it is clear that the verse applies to judging people as a sentencing judge would.

This is where translation issues make a difference. The original word is Greek (krineo) and means "condemn by judgment" more than "judge" as we define that word in English. We are told not to judge people (the condition of their heart and their ultimate destination/reward), since we all have motes and beams and blind spots.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Re: Jesus as Both Advocate and Judge - and We as Advocates

Post by QuestionAbound » 26 Mar 2017, 16:55

Thought I'd throw this in...

Background: when I was a young child, someone harmed me in a terrible way. To date I have never harbored anger towards this person. Part of that comes from the fact that it never occurred to me to BE angry. Another part is that I can look at this person's life now and see what sad condition it is in. I pray for this person's safety. I pray for happiness.

Every Psych book says that I should be in counseling. I should be going through 12 steps. I should be in bad shape. Everyone says that I have the right to be angry. I should demand justice. And, I guess in some ways I certainly could seek justice and I could be angry. I'm justified in doing so, right?
But I am not and it isn't even a dilemma on my part. :)
I have forgiven this person.

So, now we think, "Okay, they'll be punished in the hereafter."

Maybe.

But, here is how I picture judgement day (sort of):

Say we are at the bar of judgement and those whom we have harmed are allowed to come and air grievances. Maybe they can petition the court to punish us. Perhaps we are reminded of those wrongs before our accusers show up...you know, to prepare our case. lol. Either way, let's say that we can see the court docket and when we see someone who wronged us, we can show up at the appointed time and ask for justice.

If this scenario is correct, I will not be found pressing charges against the person who harmed me. In fact, I may show up as a character witness to point out the good things and charitable acts that I've witnessed from this person. Maybe I'll not even mention the harm done to me. Of course this person will have other "crimes" that will be brought up in court, but I won't be an accuser.

Now, when it's my turn at the bar to be judged, I sure hope that the people whom I've harmed choose not to "press charges" against me either :)

So, I guess I see the Savior act in a similar way that He did when the woman taken in adultery was brought before him.
He was asked to be a judge in that situation.
At some point, He asked the woman where her accusers were.
There were none...for that crime.
Maybe He was then an advocate and encouraged her to change her ways.

When our time comes, may we not have accusers either. :thumbup:

I hope that makes sense.

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Re: Jesus as Both Advocate and Judge - and We as Advocates

Post by Curt Sunshine » 27 Mar 2017, 07:34

That is beautiful, QA.

Thank you for sharing it.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Roy
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Re: Jesus as Both Advocate and Judge - and We as Advocates

Post by Roy » 29 Mar 2017, 11:38

QA, you remind me of an old StayLDS member, "Mercy&Garce"

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3354&p=42393&hilit= ... ice#p42393
mercyngrace wrote:
03 Jul 2012, 15:07
Even the sacrifice and penal substitution metaphors for the atonement miss the point, IMO. The writer of Hebrews seems to indicate that the law of sacrifice was provided to assuage our own guilt. WE need a price to be paid, not God. That's why He repeats time and again that He doesn't need the blood of beasts but a broken heart and contrite spirit.

IMO, there was no price to be paid - no law written on stone tables that preceded Satan (our white witch per Lewis' tales). There is an accuser, our adversary, and whether he roams the earth lying in wait to deceive or exists only in the blackness of our own hearts, he can be satiated and his sense of justice must be appeased. This accuser is appeased, when he comes face to face with one who willingly, and motivated by unadulterated charity, suffers an unfathomable injustice on behalf of another. Then and there the accuser hangs his head in shame, drops his stone, realizes his own culpability, and frees his offender of his just demands. In that instant, mercy claims both accuser and accused. Charity, if they allow it, changes them both.

In essence, Abraham stood ready to appease a God who gently reproved "You do not need to appease me. I will show you through the unblemished Lamb, how to accept an offer that has always been extended."

And He did.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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