Omnipotent Heavenly Parents!

For the discussion of spirituality -- from LDS and non-LDS sources
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DarkJedi
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Re: Omnipotent Heavenly Parents!

Post by DarkJedi » 17 Nov 2016, 08:56

Ann wrote: It takes a huge leap of faith anymore for me to even believe in an afterlife or resurrection, so I definitely don't believe in actual sex to create spirits. But when our story is that some kind of replication, organization, or whatever, created us in their image, I don't see how we can not flesh out the idea of a mother.
I agree with you. I don't know how the universe was created, either, but I believe God did it. I likewise believe he is the father of our spirits, and if there is a father there must be a mother. I just don't ever feel much of a connection with the creators of our spirits. I could be totally wrong about sex in the afterlife, but it makes little sense to me.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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DarkJedi
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Re: Omnipotent Heavenly Parents!

Post by DarkJedi » 17 Nov 2016, 09:09

nibbler wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:I could imagine people here making an argument one way or the other, but my perception of the average orthodox member is that they believe God is indeed all powerful and can do anything.
Maybe this is venturing into nuanced territory but I think there are points of orthodox doctrine that makes god subject to things, "The Law" for example, or even us provided we do what god says. Does a certain level of capriciousness come bundled with omnipotence? For example, why would an omnipotent god need to provide a savior to satisfy the demands of justice? Or perhaps god is the author of the laws to which god is also subject to.

That's a different discussion.
It is a different discussion, maybe worth starting a thread about. But I have wondered these things myself, especially in my more agnostic days. Then there's the conundrum that God made the law but somehow has to obey the law, but then some miracles seem to defy the law. Maybe he only says he has to obey the law, sort of like the prophet says he could never lead us astray but the only way we know that is because he said so - and it may not actually be so. And frankly I've always wondered about the whole atonement thing myself - if God is omnipotent, couldn't he just forgive whoever he wants for whatever reason? Why does there need to be a law? And where does Heavenly Mother fit in the law? (On the TV show Lucifer, she's also been cast out of heaven.)
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

Roy
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Re: Omnipotent Heavenly Parents!

Post by Roy » 17 Nov 2016, 12:46

Ann wrote:I'm no scholar, but I just don't see how we don't end up going there. Isn't it impossible not to, given how we've defined Heavenly Father? There is a father with a male body and children, but no mother? "The thought makes reason stare," and all that. I know I'm just stating the obvious.
LookingHard wrote:Maybe it is because I very recently listened to Bill Reel's MormonDiscussionPodcast I think this gets tangled up with with the Adam God doctrine and the top church leaders want to stay the hell away from that. I don't want to go there.
I agree that heavenly parents is a logical conclusion given our theology. Having listened to the same podcast on this subject, I also agree that the Adam-God doctrine was also a natural outgrowth of our eternal marriage/eternal progression theology. The couplet "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become." Is also a logical next step to this theology.

Adam-God has been called a theory and specifically disavowed. The first part of the couplet about the origin of God has been downplayed and diminished. Are we trying to pick up one end of a theological stick without picking up the other? (although I believe that many/most would not really think deeply about these things)
DarkJedi wrote:I would wager McConkie had an opinion on the subject [of Omnipotence], but I threw out his great opinion essays (AKA Mormon Doctrine). There is however much of his opinion left in the Bible Dictionary and Topical Guide
My understanding is that there has been some tension between those that would emphasize the eternal progression aspect of God against those that would emphasize the perfection and "Omni" attributes of God that are common outside of Mormonism. I understand that Elder McConkie did use the Omni's to describe God and was a large force towards pushing the pendulum in that direction.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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Vincent53
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Re: Omnipotent Heavenly Parents!

Post by Vincent53 » 18 Nov 2016, 03:10

I'm a bit cynical about the idea of our heavenly mother/mothers, so if we accept the idea of God having multiple wives, which one is my heavenly mother and why is she hanging out with this polygamist?


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For my part I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of the stars makes me dream.
-Vincent van Gogh

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DarkJedi
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Re: Omnipotent Heavenly Parents!

Post by DarkJedi » 18 Nov 2016, 06:36

Vincent53 wrote:I'm a bit cynical about the idea of our heavenly mother/mothers, so if we accept the idea of God having multiple wives, which one is my heavenly mother and why is she hanging out with this polygamist?
Among the many things I am unsure of, one of them is that I am unsure Heavenly Father is a polygamist. If we're backing off the "As man is God once was...." idea, I would err on the side of God not being a polygamist.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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Vincent53
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Re: Omnipotent Heavenly Parents!

Post by Vincent53 » 18 Nov 2016, 16:10

Yes DarkJedi, I'm trying to leave that ingrained dogma behind, but It's been a part of my thinking for so long and now I'm just cynical about it. I'm trying to reframe my idea God. It takes time.


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For my part I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of the stars makes me dream.
-Vincent van Gogh

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DarkJedi
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Re: Omnipotent Heavenly Parents!

Post by DarkJedi » 18 Nov 2016, 18:57

Vincent53 wrote:Yes DarkJedi, I'm trying to leave that ingrained dogma behind, but It's been a part of my thinking for so long and now I'm just cynical about it. I'm trying to reframe my idea God. It takes time.
Tell me about it! That's one of the toughest parts of faith crisis and faith transition IMO.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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