Feeling the spirit elsewhere than the mormon church

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unsure
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Re: Feeling the spirit elsewhere than the mormon church

Post by unsure » 09 Aug 2016, 09:43

nibbler wrote:This comment will unintentionally sound very matter of fact but...

What would it mean to you if those feelings were coming from the spirit? What would it mean to you if those feelings were coming from you? It could be some combination, internal feelings validated by the spirit or spiritual feelings validated by you. If you felt good does it matter where the feelings came from? Is one source more valid or authoritative than another? Would identifying the source make a difference in what you intend to do about those feelings?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not challenging you or anything. I just thought I'd fire off a few questions. Junk food for thought. ;)
Good questions. I'm not sure I really have the answers to those questions. I guess I want to feel like I know they are coming from the spirit so I'm getting a confirmation that things are true and it's not just my inner self feeling good. I don't mind at all being challenged so fire away. :)

DarkJedi wrote: And therein is the keystone of my faith crisis. I don't know the answers to your questions. I do wholeheartedly believe the spirit can be felt anywhere at any time, that Mormons have no monopoly on the spirit and that the "gift of the Holy Ghost" is not all it's purported to be. That said, I most often feel what I think is the spirit during music but it is not limited to music. The second most common time is when I am alone in nature.
This sounds a lot like me. For me there is something deeply spiritual about going out into nature away from everyone and just soaking it in. I really feel close to God when I do that. I don't mind doing it with others but it's a lot easier to control the peace and quiet when it's just you alone. :D


After thinking about it some more I think part of my issue was feeling like, I'm going through a faith crisis so why allow me to feel the spirit elsewhere and cause further confusion. I don't know. That's not the best way to say it but I'm not coming up with the words right now.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Feeling the spirit elsewhere than the mormon church

Post by Curt Sunshine » 09 Aug 2016, 12:12

To help you understand and clarify truth, which helps growth occur.

If eternal progression is the goal, that has to happen - over and over and over again for time and all eternity.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Heber13
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Re: Feeling the spirit elsewhere than the mormon church

Post by Heber13 » 09 Aug 2016, 14:39

unsure wrote:After thinking about it some more I think part of my issue was feeling like, I'm going through a faith crisis so why allow me to feel the spirit elsewhere and cause further confusion. I don't know. That's not the best way to say it but I'm not coming up with the words right now..
Perhaps because that is exactly what your soul needs to see in order to move forward in your faith, because you likely cannot move back to how you believed things before. Putting toothpaste back in the tube is almost impossible.

As the familiar Einstein quote goes:
We can not solve our problems with the same level of thinking that created them.
Now that you can see the Spirit outside of church...what does that tell you about God's love for his children, including you? Including imperfect bishops? Including imperfect church policies?

Sometimes God gives us the spirit despite us.

I have been to other churches and been blown away by some sermons about familiar stories in the NT but with such a different take on it I wondered why God's true church didn't inspire me with such stories. But to be honest...there were other things like how they passed a collection plate around and induced guilt to give publicly in front of others that really turned me off.

I think it was a mixed bag as I visited other churches. Some good, some bad. :think: Kinda like my experience in my ward. Mixed bag. Not ultimately better. Not absolutely worse.

I imagine other churches would mostly go away if people in their congregations weren't having some spiritual experiences. That makes sense. As Ray said, we should seek goodness and truth wherever we can find it...and mormons don't have a monopoly on it...but we've got some good things that keep me going back.

I think you may be on to a new "ah-ha" experience...where you can see that the spirit and revelation works differently than you used to think it worked. And that learning helps us pull through our faith crisis, and leads to more Stage 5 Conjunctive Faith. It is why I think of the things in that thread on Faith Crises [here]

Have you ever read this essay: “Believest thou…?”: Faith, Cognitive Dissonance, and the Psychology of Religious Experience

It's an oldy, but a goodie.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

unsure
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Re: Feeling the spirit elsewhere than the mormon church

Post by unsure » 09 Aug 2016, 16:22

Thanks for the thoughts guys.

Heber - I haven't read that. Will do so tonight.

Sheldon
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Re: Feeling the spirit elsewhere than the mormon church

Post by Sheldon » 11 Aug 2016, 11:04

What is the spirit? I’m a big crybaby, and I get it from my mother. I first noticed this when I was about 5, and watch a show on TV called “The Little Match Girl” I remember crying during the show. I also cry during chick flicks (there, I said it). Is this the spirit? It is the exact same feeling I get when listening to an inspiring talk in church, or a beautiful hymn.

So is the “Spirit” testifying to me of the truthfulness of “The Notebook”, or is my DNA such that I’m going to cry at tender moments, and it has nothing to do with the “sprit”? And if this is the case, isn’t our conversion process unethical?

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LookingHard
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Re: Feeling the spirit elsewhere than the mormon church

Post by LookingHard » 11 Aug 2016, 12:25

Me too. I can be a crybaby.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Feeling the spirit elsewhere than the mormon church

Post by DarkJedi » 11 Aug 2016, 12:37

I actually cry less since my faith crisis. Maybe I cried out all my excess tears during the crisis. That said, your questions are my questions Sheldon, and this very issue was/is the core of my crisis.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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LookingHard
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Re: Feeling the spirit elsewhere than the mormon church

Post by LookingHard » 11 Aug 2016, 14:07

And likewise with me. I look at the mess and I am willing to keep going forward with the Mormon script, but I can't do it without a confirmation. I am re-reading the BOM and praying each time before and after and i will see if I get such a confirmation.

Roy
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Re: Feeling the spirit elsewhere than the mormon church

Post by Roy » 11 Aug 2016, 17:37

Sheldon wrote:And if this is the case, isn’t our conversion process unethical?
As someone that has taken multiple college classes on ethics, I would say that no... the LDS conversion process is not unethical.

The principle reason for this is those that seek to convert are full believers that what they are saying is true. It is ethical to say what one believes to be the truth, even if it cannot be proven or if it later turns out not to be true.

It should also be noted that religion generally has a sort of buyer beware disclaimer attached to it. It is not subject to the sorts of "false advertising" and other constraints that affect other sorts of institutions.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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LookingHard
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Re: Feeling the spirit elsewhere than the mormon church

Post by LookingHard » 11 Aug 2016, 21:08

I wouldn't say it is unethical, but I would say it is unreliable and/or inconsistent.

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