The Twilight Within Us

For the discussion of spirituality -- from LDS and non-LDS sources
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Rix
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Re: The Twilight Within Us

Post by Rix » 05 Aug 2009, 16:47

just me wrote:*loving this thread*

In regards to the danger of apathy. If someone is fully living life for the experience and to experience joy, sorrow, etc, wouldn't that avoid apathy? Wouldn't that person see the purpose in experience?
We devour the beautiful and enticing fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. It is no longer on the tree, shining in appearance. Have we destroyed it? No. We took it inside ourselves. We digest it, and it is assimilated into our being, into every cell. The experience is described as the assimilation of opposites. In order to truly live, we must also die. In order to have joy, we must weep. It's a tension of opposites that plays out like a fractal diagram expanding, creating a life experience. We can fear this. We can find beauty and wonderment in it.

I say we are on a hero's adventure, not sitting in a study hall taking a pass/fail proficiency exam.
I absolutely love this, Valoel!!!!!!! I may steal it.... :D
I like it too!

Like others, I don't see detachment as the same as apathy. In fact, quite the opposite. To me, in a way, detachment is the opposite of a few things...one being codependency, another is expectations. Codependency, if defined as "one's well being is dependent on another's behaviors," can be very pathological. It leads to depression, sadness...and when combined with expectations, only leads to much disappointment. After all, we really only have control of our own life.

So detachment, from this perspective, may look selfish and self-absorbed, but is really a process of letting go of many things we were taught to attach to. That looks like apathy to those who don't understand it.
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche

God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that. -- Joseph Campbell

swimordie
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Re: The Twilight Within Us

Post by swimordie » 05 Aug 2009, 22:22

Beautiful insight, Rix!!

But you didn't finish it. You mentioned the two downers: co-dependency and expectations, but you mostly talked about co-dependency. How about expectations?

Thanks in advance for your response, I love your insight!
Perfectionism hasn't served me. I think I am done with it. -Poppyseed

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Brian Johnston
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Re: The Twilight Within Us

Post by Brian Johnston » 06 Aug 2009, 10:43

I am nothing more than a novice at this too, but I agree that detachment does not mean a lack of feeling (joy or sorrow). Quite the opposite! We should feel these as much as possible.

Detachment to me is related to expectations. Expectations (and dependence) causes fear, that we might not get our desire at some point in the future. Detachment in the sense we are talking about is letting go of expectations. We do good for the experience of doing it, not so that we get something expected in return. We work on accepting things as they are, understanding things as they are, and experiencing what is truly real -- the now. The future does not exist. The past is a memory that fades and morphs over time.

Detachment does not indicate a lack of living. It is super-living!
"It's strange to be here. The mystery never leaves you alone." -John O'Donohue, Anam Cara, speaking of experiencing life.

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Rix
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Re: The Twilight Within Us

Post by Rix » 06 Aug 2009, 14:08

Valoel wrote:I am nothing more than a novice at this too, but I agree that detachment does not mean a lack of feeling (joy or sorrow). Quite the opposite! We should feel these as much as possible.

Detachment to me is related to expectations. Expectations (and dependence) causes fear, that we might not get our desire at some point in the future. Detachment in the sense we are talking about is letting go of expectations. We do good for the experience of doing it, not so that we get something expected in return. We work on accepting things as they are, understanding things as they are, and experiencing what is truly real -- the now. The future does not exist. The past is a memory that fades and morphs over time.

Detachment does not indicate a lack of living. It is super-living!
Actually, to respond to Swimordie, this post by Valoel is about what I would have said (if I didn't get busy at work and had to cut it short! :x ) He said it well!

I was raised with the emphasis on that ole scripture "for obedience to each commandment, there is a corresponding reward (or "blessing"). (of course paraphrasing....). I took it quite literally and it became a game of mathematics. If I paid my tithing, I expected financial "blessings." If I fulfilled my callings, went to meetings, read my scriptures, etc., etc....I expected that life would generally go my way.

It didn't (at least how I expected it too). So as I did the math, God was upside down with me. The paradigm was failing. So in my resentment, my life went to pot (from the world's view).

In my searching/recovery process I read and listened to gurus from all walks of life. I read books on the life of Ghandi, Buddha, many new thought teachers...all taught me much. Through all of it, I learned that what worked for me was to approach life with an attitude involving two simple principles:

1) I am responsible for everything in my life; and
2) I have no expectations of anybody else; anything I receive from others is a gift.

It changed my life. You can't be a victim of anything with this approach. God, the Church, my friends, my parents, my spouse...were all doing the best they could with what they'd been given. There was no fault anywhere...nor blame. My life turned around in every sense of the word from there. When all there is is gratitude, there is no stress or worry.

I also changed my take on "love." I don't believe in "loving" the way many do. I don't "love another" in the way where we would expect that if I give something, I get something back...or if I do something for "her," she should do something for me. That is a set up for disaster! The only person I can "love" is myself. When I do that perfectly, I can share my love with others, but I expect nothing in return. I can commit all my romantic love to my wife, but I expect nothing, nor do I need anything, from her. We simply enjoy sharing our life experience with each other.

I think that is consistent with detachment. At least that's what I try to live. I find that if I start to get upset about something...I have lost sight of one or both of the principles, and I replay it until I see it correctly. And I can honestly say my life is awesome today!
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche

God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that. -- Joseph Campbell

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Tom Haws
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Re: The Twilight Within Us

Post by Tom Haws » 06 Aug 2009, 14:20

Rix, you are right. You have been through great tribulation. You have overcome. Thanks for sharing, brother. You spoke the truth. I'm probably about 10 years behind you. Been through "to pot", transcendence epiphany, and the gurus. Just barely finally getting it about love and about that personal evidence of bad feeling that I am seeing things in error. Wow! It's great.
Tom (aka Justin Martyr/Justin Morning/Jacob Marley/Kupord Maizzed)
Higley and Guadalupe
Gilbert, Arizona
----
Sure, any religion would do. But I'm LDS.
"There are no academic issues. Everything is emotional to somebody." Ray Degraw at www.StayLDS.com

swimordie
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Re: The Twilight Within Us

Post by swimordie » 06 Aug 2009, 15:15

Valoel wrote:We work on accepting things as they are, understanding things as they are, and experiencing what is truly real -- the now. The future does not exist. The past is a memory that fades and morphs over time.
Rix wrote:1) I am responsible for everything in my life; and
2) I have no expectations of anybody else; anything I receive from others is a gift.
After reading your posts, Valoel and Rix, my eyes welled up in joy. To me, this concept is the most important concept for us to learn and live our whole lives. It may also be the most difficult thing to learn and live, which makes sense if it''s also the most important.

Sorry if that sounds overstated, but I believe it and feel it deeply.

In that "universe space" of real detachment and presence and awareness, the greatest communication with the "light" inside all of us happens. It feels instinctual. Every thought is "pure", motive is "good", intimacy is deeper, joy is ecstatic, humor is funnier, food tastes better, there is joy in sunshine and rain alike. Grief and pain are also more acute but embraced as an important part of the process, as lesson, as a type of "hands-on-living".

I haven't been able to maintain super long stretches of true detachment in the year+ that I've been attempting to live that way, but when I'm in that place, oh the joy!
Perfectionism hasn't served me. I think I am done with it. -Poppyseed

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Rix
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Re: The Twilight Within Us

Post by Rix » 06 Aug 2009, 15:25

Tom Haws wrote:Rix, you are right. You have been through great tribulation. You have overcome. Thanks for sharing, brother. You spoke the truth. I'm probably about 10 years behind you. Been through "to pot", transcendence epiphany, and the gurus. Just barely finally getting it about love and about that personal evidence of bad feeling that I am seeing things in error. Wow! It's great.
Thanks Tom! I certainly don't think I'm "there" yet, but a lot closer than I've been! Hindsight is 20/20 (I can say that as an eye doctor... :lol: ), but I can see now that all the challenges I had were great gifts that I needed to have the experience. It's hard to be grateful for the pain when you're in it, but it really increases your appreciation when you're on the other side, huh?!
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche

God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that. -- Joseph Campbell

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Rix
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Joined: 20 Jul 2009, 14:29
Location: Bluffdale, UT

Re: The Twilight Within Us

Post by Rix » 06 Aug 2009, 15:28

swimordie wrote:
Valoel wrote:We work on accepting things as they are, understanding things as they are, and experiencing what is truly real -- the now. The future does not exist. The past is a memory that fades and morphs over time.
Rix wrote:1) I am responsible for everything in my life; and
2) I have no expectations of anybody else; anything I receive from others is a gift.
After reading your posts, Valoel and Rix, my eyes welled up in joy. To me, this concept is the most important concept for us to learn and live our whole lives. It may also be the most difficult thing to learn and live, which makes sense if it''s also the most important.

Sorry if that sounds overstated, but I believe it and feel it deeply.

In that "universe space" of real detachment and presence and awareness, the greatest communication with the "light" inside all of us happens. It feels instinctual. Every thought is "pure", motive is "good", intimacy is deeper, joy is ecstatic, humor is funnier, food tastes better, there is joy in sunshine and rain alike. Grief and pain are also more acute but embraced as an important part of the process, as lesson, as a type of "hands-on-living".

I haven't been able to maintain super long stretches of true detachment in the year+ that I've been attempting to live that way, but when I'm in that place, oh the joy!
Absolutely amen...and another amen! :D :!: :D :!:
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche

God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that. -- Joseph Campbell

jeriboy
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Re: The Twilight Within Us

Post by jeriboy » 08 Aug 2009, 10:29

Ray Degraw » 05 Aug 2009, 06:35
"All things" would include the Church, would it not? It also would include within each individual member.

Perhaps the lack of struggle we crave so much isn't a good thing in the long run - or even possible. Perhaps learning to be at peace with extrenal AND internal opposition is one of the great liberators of the Gospel ("Good News") - the idea that the inherent turmoil that "must needs be" is unavoidable and reconciled ("atoned for") already in the eternal scheme of things.

The above made me wonder if I have gotten to good at keeping problem people out of my life. For forty of my sixty five years I have lived a tranquil life, compared to many friends who keep letting others in that cause a whole lot of excitetment. I suspect my hair turned grey early watching my friends go from one problem to another, and most of those problems were other people. I had read that the family of Pres. Benson used to vote on wheather or not a new friend of a member of the family would be allowed into the inner circle of friendship. To me that would be a wise princple, it's easier to fool one family member, but much harder to fool a group. Prehaps my growth level would increase if I let a little more excitement into my life.

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Antiquarian
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Re: The Twilight Within Us

Post by Antiquarian » 14 Aug 2009, 11:36

I'm so glad this had NOTHING to do with those books every teen is reading or I was going to have to get Medieval on the Board!

Pema Chordon is a great read about these kinds of topic (balance of light and dark or not letting things take control and of letting go) - wisdom of no escape and when things fall apart are my favorites.
we've come full circle Lord.
I'd like to think there's some higher meaning in all this.
Certainly would reflect well on you.

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