Sustaining the Church Leaders as Prophets, and etc.

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Called to Serve
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Sustaining the Church Leaders as Prophets, and etc.

Post by Called to Serve » 19 Dec 2012, 13:13

When President Monson became church leader I felt it important to gain a testimony of him as a prophet. I prayed and was surprised not to be given such a testimony. In fact, I may have felt the Spirit telling me, no, he isn't, but if I did, I blocked that out. I just remember that my answer troubled me (but I doubt a simple heavenly silence would have, only a "no" would have). Since I couldn't understand my answer at the time, I dropped the matter and went on with life.

Now the Spirit has led me to see a lot of the errors in the church today and I have been wondering about this issue. I have not been to the temple for quite some time because I felt I shouldn't go if I couldn't answer all the questions as they were intended to be answered. I have pondered and prayed many times about the status of the church leaders before God. Though I feel no desire to judge them, they are the church leaders and I am asked by the church to sustain them as prophets, seers, and revelators, which I have decided I cannot do since I have not had that knowledge revealed to me by God.

The issue is not pressing since I went in to the bishop for a temple recommend interview last Sunday and told him of my dilemma. Because he is in the middle of tithing settlement season, he asked me to come back in a couple of weeks to discuss the issue at length. He is a kind bishop, but I can't help feeling a little worried that I am going to feel pressured to just go ahead and accept the leaders as prophets and etc. whether or not I receive heavenly validation. I would really like to come to some resolution before then.

I would love to know how some of you feel about this issue. I have no problem whatsoever of believing this is the Lord's church and that the leaders are called by Him as leaders for this church. I don't believe this automatically makes them prophets or anything else.

I am not overly concerned about going to the temple. I went to the interview simply because my recommend just expired. I feel that I have access to the fullness of the Spirit no matter where I am. I am more concerned about what to do about my newfound beliefs and how they relate to the church. My main purpose is to bring others to Christ. I have dedicated myself to the church and to helping the members come unto Christ. But how to accomplish this goal, I am not sure. Do I be bold or try to fit in? I am walking the line right now and just not sure which way to go or how to proceed.

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Bruce in Montana
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Re: Sustaining the Church Leaders as Prophets, and etc.

Post by Bruce in Montana » 19 Dec 2012, 18:57

I've always felt that God calls prophets and church members call leaders (church presidents included). If the early church had voted to not sustain JS as prophet, I don't think God would have realized some mistake on his part and picked someone else.

I guess I would honestly research what a Prophet is....what a Revelator is....and what constitutes a Seer.

If the current folks meet those descriptions, then sustain them.

If not...
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
-William S.

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DBMormon
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Re: Sustaining the Church Leaders as Prophets, and etc.

Post by DBMormon » 19 Dec 2012, 19:18

my thoughts only.

I see President Monson as the Prophet. To be a prophet one must prophesy. While I don't suggest he receives revelations constantly, I see him as the one whom if the Lord gives a revelation to the world, it will be through him. That is enough for me to see him as the prophet. That in essence he holds the keys and can only reveal what God chooses to reveal. That said I think we also have to take into account that Post Christ prophet is a different function then pre Christ prophet. We sometimes want to make them seem the same. I see President Monson in the same way I see Peter (or whoever your facts say was the head apostle).

The new testament shows the apostles as very human, disagreeing vehemently with each other and revelation seeming sporadic at times. I see our apostles in the same light.
Last edited by DBMormon on 20 Dec 2012, 09:58, edited 1 time in total.

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cwald
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Re: Sustaining the Church Leaders as Prophets, and etc.

Post by cwald » 19 Dec 2012, 19:43

I support and sustain Thomas Monson as the PRESIDENT of the LDS church and as A prophet.

I do not believe he is THE PROPHET.
I believe he is a prophet much like the Dalia Lama, MLK, Tolkien, Uchtdorf, Joanna Brookes, Gene Roddenberry, Wayfarer, etc etc.

I do not have TR.

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  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: Sustaining the Church Leaders as Prophets, and etc.

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 20 Dec 2012, 10:17

Called to Serve wrote:When President Monson became church leader I felt it important to gain a testimony of him as a prophet. I prayed and was surprised not to be given such a testimony. In fact, I may have felt the Spirit telling me, no, he isn't...I have not been to the temple for quite some time because I felt I shouldn't go if I couldn't answer all the questions as they were intended to be answered...I would love to know how some of you feel about this issue. I have no problem whatsoever of believing this is the Lord's church and that the leaders are called by Him as leaders for this church. I don't believe this automatically makes them prophets or anything else...I am not overly concerned about going to the temple...Do I be bold or try to fit in? I am walking the line right now and just not sure which way to go or how to proceed.
From my perspective it looks like temple recommends are mostly for true believers and/or Church members that are worried about what other members will think about them if they don't have one. If you don't believe it all and if what other members think about you is not a major concern for you then there is really no pressing need to have a temple recommend. The peer pressure involved with temple "worthiness" is also why I wouldn't blame anyone too much for just telling them what they want to hear in order to get a temple recommend because of all the gossip and unfair judgments that are likely to occur if they don't have one.

It's easy to say that complete honesty is supposedly always the best policy but sometimes it's not that easy to deal with the harsh realities that come with the territory of actual brutal honesty in practice. Personally I don't see how the Church can really expect full disclosure of any potential "unworthiness" out of members while they continue to rely so much on whitewashed history and doctrines mostly because they know full well that telling members everything they could is probably not going to produce the results they want to see.
"Truth is what works." - William James

Minyan Man
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Re: Sustaining the Church Leaders as Prophets, and etc.

Post by Minyan Man » 20 Dec 2012, 10:44

DA, I would disagree with one thing you said:
From my perspective it looks like temple recommends are mostly for true believers and/or Church members that are worried about what other members will think about them if they don't have one.
I recently got my TR after along absence. I got it to see if I was missing anything spiritually on a personal level.
I wanted to see if my DW & I could take our relationship to a different (higher) level too.
After going back to the temple, I found that I did miss it.
I could care less what anyone else thinks about me.
Maybe that's why I picked OPR's picture for my avatar.

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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: Sustaining the Church Leaders as Prophets, and etc.

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 20 Dec 2012, 11:44

Mike wrote:DA, I would disagree with one thing you said:
From my perspective it looks like temple recommends are mostly for true believers and/or Church members that are worried about what other members will think about them if they don't have one.
I recently got my TR after along absence. I got it to see if I was missing anything spiritually on a personal level.
I wanted to see if my DW & I could take our relationship to a different (higher) level too.
After going back to the temple, I found that I did miss it.
I could care less what anyone else thinks about me.

Maybe that's why I picked OPR's picture for my avatar.
I'm glad to hear about your positive experience returning to the temple and that you did this for your own reasons. I understand that there are usually exceptions to every rule or generalization and there could be endless combinations of different motivations to go to the temple. What I meant was simply that I think the majority of members with current temple recommends believe most of what the Church teaches and that this is what they are supposed to do and/or they are afraid of what other members would think about them if they didn't get a recommend when they did; not that there aren't any other factors that also play a part. Some of my cynicism about temples and temple worthiness probably comes from living in Utah my entire life other than during my mission and seeing some of the hypocrisy that goes on here first hand and especially seeing the way my family reacted when I didn't get married in the temple.
"Truth is what works." - William James

sailaway
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Re: Sustaining the Church Leaders as Prophets, and etc.

Post by sailaway » 20 Dec 2012, 13:48

DBMormon wrote:my thoughts only.

I see President Monson as the Prophet. To be a prophet one must prophesy. While I don't suggest he receives revelations constantly, I see him as the one whom if the Lord gives a revelation to the world, it will be through him. That is enough for me to see him as the prophet. That in essence he holds the keys and can only reveal what God chooses to reveal. That said I think we also have to take into account that Post Christ prophet is a different function then pre Christ prophet. We sometimes want to make them seem the same. I see President Monson in the same way I see Peter (or whoever your facts say was the head apostle).

The new testament shows the apostles as very human, disagreeing vehemently with each other and revelation seeming sporadic at times. I see our apostles in the same light.
I'd mostly agree with this. I don't think everything that comes from the prophet's mouth is gospel truth and I think he's perfectly capable of making mistakes or merely voicing his personal opinion/counsel (i.e. only one pair of earrings.)

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Sustaining the Church Leaders as Prophets, and etc.

Post by Curt Sunshine » 20 Dec 2012, 14:49

sailaway, I actually think DB agrees with you.

There is a thread specifically about this to which I will link.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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DBMormon
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Re: Sustaining the Church Leaders as Prophets, and etc.

Post by DBMormon » 20 Dec 2012, 15:12

sailaway wrote:
DBMormon wrote:my thoughts only.

I see President Monson as the Prophet. To be a prophet one must prophesy. While I don't suggest he receives revelations constantly, I see him as the one whom if the Lord gives a revelation to the world, it will be through him. That is enough for me to see him as the prophet. That in essence he holds the keys and can only reveal what God chooses to reveal. That said I think we also have to take into account that Post Christ prophet is a different function then pre Christ prophet. We sometimes want to make them seem the same. I see President Monson in the same way I see Peter (or whoever your facts say was the head apostle).

The new testament shows the apostles as very human, disagreeing vehemently with each other and revelation seeming sporadic at times. I see our apostles in the same light.
I'd mostly agree with this. I don't think everything that comes from the prophet's mouth is gospel truth and I think he's perfectly capable of making mistakes or merely voicing his personal opinion/counsel (i.e. only one pair of earrings.)
I do completely agree, thanks for having my back Ray - by the way Ray I sent you a message on Skype.

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