GC Elder Christofferson: Voice of Warning - Offensive?

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Do you find Elder Christofferson's Voice of Warning GC talk inspiring? (up to 2 selections allowed)

Very inspiring (list what inspired in comments)
1
6%
Has some good thoughts
3
17%
Didn't like the talk, but whatev
6
33%
Offensive - I have issues with it (list in comments)
4
22%
Other (specify in comments)
4
22%
 
Total votes: 18

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Heber13
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Re: GC Elder Christofferson: Voice of Warning - Offensive?

Post by Heber13 » 10 Jul 2017, 15:17

Roy wrote:
10 Jul 2017, 12:43
however there are still bona fide hate speech items that really are worth banning from the cafeteria. being able to identify and more or less agree on them is important.
well said...and also...to me, that means if there is a bona fide risk and I need to speak up and protect my children or family or even avoid the cafeteria I know is unsafe for my kids even if others don't see the risk...I can choose to speak up and do what is needed to help make changes. However is most productive to do that.

I often say that church is the practice grounds for us to learn how to deal with these things. God doesn't make the church perfect, or we wouldn't have issues to grow from handling them with love. There are sometimes no way around some problems...just through them.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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nibbler
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Re: GC Elder Christofferson: Voice of Warning - Offensive?

Post by nibbler » 10 Jul 2017, 16:40

Heber13 wrote:
10 Jul 2017, 15:11
I don't necessarily disagree with your take on this, at all. Just do see that parsing it out can sometimes be one way we focus on what was said and not said, and what we can try to draw from it. Because he wasn't specific...it also leaves me the freedom to apply it through my lens, as I see it, and not feel I'm being heretical or going against church leaders. Sometimes I get myself in trouble with that, because others say, "C'mon, Heber...you know what he is talking about..." - and I need to keep it honest and logical...but...I do find sometimes there is more leeway in what they are saying then just the first thing we jump to based on our view.
Out of curiosity, do you think Christofferson had a specific thing in mind when giving this talk? If so, what do you think it was?

Honestly, in thinking about my PH quorum, if I were to survey people I'd guess 10 out of 10 would say that this talk was about SSM... which might either be me projecting again or be an educated guess based on comments I've heard from my PH quorum over the years... which in turn fueled my speculations about what Christofferson is seeing from the social media that mobs him. Chicken and egg.... but it could very well have been a generic talk about watchmen. An alternate tl;dr; could be:

Look, I don't like calling people to repentance but I have to, otherwise god would be upset with me because that's what god called me to do, and if I don't do it... so I'll do my duty to call you to repentance. It's nice that god calls a person to this position because it helps ensure our standards don't slip over time. Take the debate over marriage as a for instance. Look how loosey goosey that is right now. Amen.
Wealth consists not in having great possessions, but in having few wants. --Epictetus

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Re: GC Elder Christofferson: Voice of Warning - Offensive?

Post by Heber13 » 11 Jul 2017, 07:37

I was thinking back to the first time I heard the talk...and of course a read through it a couple more times since then, and we had a combined EQ and HPG lesson on it (for which SSM did not come up once in the class...which it often does in our ward, but didn't this time...which also means it may have been what others were thinking about...but it didn't come up in our discussion for whatever reason).

In all honesty...what came to my mind was that the leaders are dealing with a lot and there are so many avenues for push back (internet, etc) that they are hearing more and more on all issues. I didn't immediately focus it down to SSM as the reason the talk was given. But certainly...that is part of the issues they deal with. (I don't feel bad for them...just is part of the job...as is reminding people they are called to cry repentance as part of their job).

In general, I thought his message was to remind people that leaders have a job to do, it should be done in love, but it has to be done and always has been done. It was reminding people there is a purpose behind it.

And I remember the first time I heard it I rolled my eyes at the dichotomous speech...as I mentioned in my first post. But I would probably say it wasn't a specific talk with SSM as the backdrop...at least in my mind.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Re: GC Elder Christofferson: Voice of Warning - Offensive?

Post by Roy » 11 Jul 2017, 08:37

Heber13 wrote:
11 Jul 2017, 07:37
In general, I thought his message was to remind people that leaders have a job to do, it should be done in love, but it has to be done and always has been done. It was reminding people there is a purpose behind it.
Maybe he was just reminding us....
Jack Nicholson wrote:
11 Jul 2017, 07:37
You want me on that wall. You need me on that wall!
;)
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

ydeve
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Re: GC Elder Christofferson: Voice of Warning - Offensive?

Post by ydeve » 17 Jul 2017, 08:27

To clarify, the talk wasn't the peanuts. The talk was pressuring everyone to eat the peanuts and how our friends all must have peanuts for proper nutrition. And how it's our sacred duty to ensure that everyone eats peanuts. With the strong implication that suggesting that anyone is allergic to peanuts is blasphemy.

That is why the talk is so offensive. It's not just something that some people should ignore. It perpetuates a culture of forcing people to partake of things that are deadly to them and shunning those who choose not to.

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Re: GC Elder Christofferson: Voice of Warning - Offensive?

Post by Ray DeGraw » 17 Jul 2017, 15:33

^This. The cultural implementation is the root issue.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Re: GC Elder Christofferson: Voice of Warning - Offensive?

Post by Heber13 » 17 Jul 2017, 16:15

ydeve wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 08:27
To clarify, the talk wasn't the peanuts. The talk was pressuring everyone to eat the peanuts and how our friends all must have peanuts for proper nutrition. And how it's our sacred duty to ensure that everyone eats peanuts. With the strong implication that suggesting that anyone is allergic to peanuts is blasphemy.
That's a good point. I can almost imagine them saying something like...
Leader: "Look, we honestly didn't know some people were allergic to peanuts, we thought they were just making excuses not to eat it cause they didn't like them or they wanted to eat something else. Now that we know, we have changed our stance on peanuts. All those who faithfully obeyed in the past and died because of eating what they were told to eat, God will make it right in the next life and they shall have their reward."
<observer in the back>: "Or you could have just stopped making people feel obligated to eat peanuts in the first place, and your followers shunning people who were honestly trying to avoid poison to them...it took you too long to learn that what may be good for some people in Utah county is not always the best for everyone else in the world. To quote an apostle of the Lord: 'Ultimately, we are all accountable to God for our choices and the lives we live.'....that includes you!"

...I could see some future thing that feels kinda like that will be what happens.
That is why the talk is so offensive. It's not just something that some people should ignore. It perpetuates a culture of forcing people to partake of things that are deadly to them and shunning those who choose not to.
It can have that feel to it, especially when filling in the blanks and seeing it in the context of what nibbler was pointing out when nibbler said:
nibbler wrote: Official church communication sometimes takes on a passive approach. We don't talk about gay marriage in direct terms, we use phrases like "religious freedom" with a nod and a wink where most people believe they know the real topic being addressed.
Perhaps the talk is about being a nutritionist coach, and their job is to tell people what is healthy to eat...and they are just doing their job. The problem is, among other things, they stand fast on peanuts are necessary for everyone.

Therefore...toxic message when the background is what it is. A nutritionist coach doing their job isn't the problem...but the fact they insisted on peanuts as the only option...that is the problem.

I agree, ydeve...I try to think through these things on how we can have love and support leaders trying to teach love...but I don't know how to get around the things they've said in the past...even if they try as hard as they can to say it nicely...it is just reinforcing the culture against poison.

Good for me to think through and remember.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Re: GC Elder Christofferson: Voice of Warning - Offensive?

Post by nibbler » 17 Jul 2017, 16:25

Heber13 wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 16:15
That's a good point. I can almost imagine them saying something like...
Leader: "Look, we honestly didn't know some people were allergic to peanuts, we thought they were just making excuses not to eat it cause they didn't like them or they wanted to eat something else. Now that we know, we have changed our stance on peanuts. All those who faithfully obeyed in the past and died because of eating what they were told to eat, God will make it right in the next life and they shall have their reward."
<observer in the back>: "Or you could have just stopped making people feel obligated to eat peanuts in the first place, and your followers shunning people who were honestly trying to avoid poison to them...it took you too long to learn that what may be good for some people in Utah county is not always the best for everyone else in the world. To quote an apostle of the Lord: 'Ultimately, we are all accountable to God for our choices and the lives we live.'....that includes you!"

Image
lol, it's all, "Eat the peanuts. Do it. Do it. Do it."

...until someone dies from a peanut allergy then it's all, "god will make it right in the next life." ... but make it right for whom? :angel:

Suddenly there's some mercy when the shoe is in the other foot.
Wealth consists not in having great possessions, but in having few wants. --Epictetus

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