Believer (HBO)

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DarkJedi
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Believer (HBO)

Post by DarkJedi » 05 Jul 2018, 21:28

The documentary about Dan Reynolds of Imagine Dragons. I watched it and liked it. A major premise is that we need more voices and I agree. I also cried at a couple of the teen suicide stories. Even if the Utah higher suicide rate has not actually increased or is not due to the church's LGBTQ stance, even one is one too many.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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LookingHard
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Re: Believer (HBO)

Post by LookingHard » 06 Jul 2018, 08:01

I don't have an HBO subscription, but I may just join HBOgo for a month so I can watch this on my computer.

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BeJoyful
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Re: Believer (HBO)

Post by BeJoyful » 06 Jul 2018, 09:19

LookingHard wrote:I don't have an HBO subscription, but I may just join HBOgo for a month so I can watch this on my computer.
That's what I did. They have a 2 week free trial.

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BeJoyful
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Re: Believer (HBO)

Post by BeJoyful » 06 Jul 2018, 09:45

DarkJedi wrote:The documentary about Dan Reynolds of Imagine Dragons. I watched it and liked it. A major premise is that we need more voices and I agree. I also cried at a couple of the teen suicide stories. Even if the Utah higher suicide rate has not actually increased or is not due to the church's LGBTQ stance, even one is one too many.
I think regardless of policies, the people within Utah need to be asking why the rate is higher (according to WHO it has increased, I'm not sure what other statistics there are to give a different view).

I think anytime an organization makes a stance, its members use that stance as permission to be hateful- we see it in political parties too.

This attitude influences so much of church culture, especially in areas with a dense population of LDS. I've seen it in my own circle, with people I love.

When the news article recently came out about family search enabling same sex marriage to be recorded, one of my family members (along with several other people) commented on the article saying they didn't believe it and wouldn't believe it until they heard the first presidency comment on it.

In Believer, Dan Reynolds claimed that the LoveLoud event wasn't selling tickets, when other Imagine Dragons concerts have sold out so quickly. After the church released a statement in support of the concert, ticket sales went way up.

I've felt this same need for 'permission' from the church in the past. I think the church has been making improvements in recommending love, but there are many members who will continue to give themselves permission to be bigoted as long as policies and doctrine conflict with that recommendation for love towards our LGBTQ brothers and sisters.

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On Own Now
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Re: Believer (HBO)

Post by On Own Now » 06 Sep 2018, 09:06

I've watched this documentary and I endorse it.

I did feel that it was a touch too negative toward the Church and could have simply focused more on the members of the Church who want to see this change and are looking for a way to stand up and be heard. I didn't love John Dehlin's involvement, because I felt that gave it a too contrarian aspect. There was an odd point in the documentary in which JD explained that soon after a TED Talk in which he backed LGBTQ issues, he was excommunicated, and he himself hinted that it was his speaking out on this one issue that caused his excommunication. I kind of had to raise an eyebrow on that one because I felt like it was whitewashing history, the irony of which caused me a lot of cognitive dissonence. Bottom line, I wish open and still mainline members of the Church were given more voice. I'm a member of the Church in good standing and I feel the same way about these issues. Seeing more of us, and hearing from more of us would be helpful. A nod to the people who have also been working this issue would have been nice. I've marched with Mormons Building Bridges, for example, but the documentary made no mention of anyone outside of Dan Reynolds, JD and LoveLoud ever speaking up.

But I loved the personal commitment displayed by DR. I appreciated hearing from Tyler Glenn and getting his perspective. It is apparent that the Church created a kind of martyr in him and that was heartbreaking. It was heartwarming, though, to see him be accepted by a crowd in Orem. I hope this thing grows. I want the Church to see that everyday members of the Church are looking for a change.
Last edited by On Own Now on 06 Sep 2018, 16:11, edited 1 time in total.
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." --Romans 14:13

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mom3
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Re: Believer (HBO)

Post by mom3 » 06 Sep 2018, 10:52

I have not seen the documentary. I did read his piece in Newsweek or Time (brain fart, can't remember which mag.). I am a torn individual. I care for both entities. The church and the marginalized groups including LGBTQ people. Marginalizing makes no sense to me from a Jesus Christ standpoint.

However I get super irritated by both sides style and choice of responses. My husband streamed the Love Loud concert this year. I found it sweaty, course, slimy. I love a good concert. I know lead singers work up a sweat. But there was something more a kind of general "flipping off". I get why that is the response coming from this end. They are weary, tired, and PO-ed problem is with every pull of the chain they anchor the offending group to it's point of view.

I actually believe Tom Christofferson understood this when he made his choice to return to LDS eligibility. If he wanted to be an advocate and to be truly heard, he would need to play like the team expected. That's a life fact. Not a religion only fact.

How does the lay member work with this, I don't know. In all the years I have watched people work for the church to change, the more the church is pushed the more it cranks it's efforts.

I am sorry for both sides, because the beauty and goodness on both sides gets lost in the rancor.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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DarkJedi
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Re: Believer (HBO)

Post by DarkJedi » 07 Sep 2018, 09:35

I agree with you Mom that this year's LoveLoud was more "in your face" and I fear that Reynolds is on a track where he becomes "radical" enough that church discipline is in his future. I also agree Christofferson seems to be playing his hand better by being more low key and closer to the vest. Christofferson is also more mature than Reynolds and I'm sure that figures in.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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SamBee
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Re: Believer (HBO)

Post by SamBee » 07 Sep 2018, 12:10

Depression is a major factor in the Rocky Mountain region and I believe it is to do with altitude.

As for LGBT+ I believe that is an additional factor. If a person in that situation gets depression is it because of this or in spite of it? It probably worsens it.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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LookingHard
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Re: Believer (HBO)

Post by LookingHard » 07 Sep 2018, 12:24

I found it on Youtube and watched it there.

Dan Reynolds seems to be quite antagonistic to the church (but not outright giving the church a finger), but not as much as Tyler Glenn. I would expect that Dan is going to get more frustrated as I don't see the church making any substantive changes the way he wants.

Tom Christofferson just wants to give everyone a hug, but still make his point and nudge the church from within.

I felt John Dehlin's comment that he was exed for being LGBTQ supporter as a bit misleading. He is clearly a supporter, but that alone is not what he was ex'ed for.

But even with the warts, I am glad that it was made and the LoveLoud concerts are being held.

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nibbler
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Re: Believer (HBO)

Post by nibbler » 08 Sep 2018, 06:32

mom3 wrote:
06 Sep 2018, 10:52
I get why that is the response coming from this end. They are weary, tired, and PO-ed problem is with every pull of the chain they anchor the offending group to it's point of view.
Duality. We could just as easily frame this the same way but with the roles of who anchors and who enables the anchoring reversed. The people that are weary, tired, and PO'ed got that way because there was an equal and opposing force. They feed off each other.

I do appreciate Tom Christofferson and his approach but I also think the teddy bear approach brings about change and a much slower rate. I don't know whether the the current environment supports waiting however long it would take for the teddy bear approach to effect change.

I think there's room for the teddy bear and the barking dog. Lasting change may require both.
LookingHard wrote:
07 Sep 2018, 12:24
Dan Reynolds seems to be quite antagonistic to the church (but not outright giving the church a finger), but not as much as Tyler Glenn. I would expect that Dan is going to get more frustrated as I don't see the church making any substantive changes the way he wants.
This is anecdotal but I know a few highly orthodox people that love Dan Reynolds and take their children to his concerts. I'm talking people that would call others to repentance during F&T meeting for not loving the November 5th policy with every fiber of their being. But they love Dan Reynolds and that has softened their position on LGBTQ just a little bit. That's a slightly softened heart, that's progress.

If Dan Reynolds even has the goal of changing the church I'd offer up this. What is the church, the leaders of the organization or all the members of the organization? If he measures success by getting a leader to change... yeah, good luck. If he measures success by softening the hearts of orthodox members then he's already succeeded.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold
-Jesus

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