You're not addicted

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Roy
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Re: You're not addicted

Post by Roy » 27 Sep 2017, 09:04

AmyJ wrote:
27 Sep 2017, 07:28
I do know that there are negative consequences to p. I can see where it can contribute to marriage issues - especially where lying is involved. I can see where it can be blown out of proportion and divide spouses further. I can see where the resources (time, money, emotional) spent on p can be detrimental to the family.
I think that it is important to emphasize that nobody is saying that P use does not have consequences nor (I believe) that it is not habit forming. The study is saying that these things do not necessarily make an addiction and further that applying the addiction label has negative consequences all on its own.
gospeltangents wrote:
26 Sep 2017, 12:01
Of course, but most Mormons are not addicted to porn. In order to be addicted, it is much more severe than simply looking at it once/week. It has to be so habitual that it is causing problems with your job, you get arrested, or something like that. That doesn't describe most Mormons.


I agree with this. Again, labeling pubescent sexuality as addiction is very problematic.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

AmyJ
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Re: You're not addicted

Post by AmyJ » 27 Sep 2017, 11:18

Roy wrote:
27 Sep 2017, 09:04
I think that it is important to emphasize that nobody is saying that P use does not have consequences nor (I believe) that it is not habit forming. The study is saying that these things do not necessarily make an addiction
Absolutely. I do fear the casual user being labeled an "addict" while the true addict shrugging it off as "just a habit". Since it is a spectrum of use with hushed, vaguely defined terms and (sometimes unrealistic) expectations, it is a loaded grenade waiting to go off and send shrapnel everywhere.
Roy wrote:
27 Sep 2017, 09:04
and further that applying the addiction label has negative consequences all on its own.
However, sometimes the shock value of "addiction" gets through where "habit causing problems" doesn't and helps get down to the root causes of the behavior(s) - which may not be (and probably isn't) the behaviors themselves.

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Heber13
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Re: You're not addicted

Post by Heber13 » 27 Sep 2017, 11:34

What do you think is worse...needing to drink coffee every morning and being addicted to it, or consuming porn regularly and being addicted to it?

Seems like addiction in both these cases can be overused and create psychological barriers and bruises.

Most doctors would agree that both are fairly normal and harmless to consume.

Perhaps consumption of both affects some people way more than others, and can be dangerous to some people.

But they both have a stigma in the church. Which is worse?
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

AmyJ
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Re: You're not addicted

Post by AmyJ » 27 Sep 2017, 12:09

Heber13 wrote:
27 Sep 2017, 11:34
What do you think is worse...needing to drink coffee every morning and being addicted to it, or consuming porn regularly and being addicted to it?
On their own independent of other circumstances, I consider them personal choices equal in scope.

But if my need for coffee takes up several hours a day, or causes a family member extreme angst because they were conditioned to treat it as poison and that was not resolvable, well that may change things. If my spouse considered my coffee-drinking an insult against their coffee bean growing abilities, that would also change things. If I am spending too many family resources on premiere coffee that my children actually need for survival, that changes things. If there is no conversation about my coffee habits because of anger and stonewalling, that is a clear sign that something needs to change.

I think the greatest harm that p does is set the spouses against themselves in expectations. we set the expectation up that our youth won't have to think about these choices, that they are default "wrong", and then when everything doesn't proceed to plan and these choices have to be thought out, we hand them nothing.
Heber13 wrote:
27 Sep 2017, 11:34
Perhaps consumption of both affects some people way more than others, and can be dangerous to some people.
I think that there is a segment of society that tends to take habits towards addictions - they are biologically wired to do so. I think that if keeping the behavior labeled as an "addiction" instead of a "habit" is useful because it validates the seriousness of what they are fighting.

I do think that the church labels things as "addictions" that may not necessarily be addictions. I think that what matters more is the support shown to the individual - "addiction" or "habit" - and that is something we are not comfortable giving as a church.

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Heber13
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Re: You're not addicted

Post by Heber13 » 28 Sep 2017, 10:19

AmyJ wrote:
27 Sep 2017, 12:09
I think that there is a segment of society that tends to take habits towards addictions
YES! And I think that does us all a disservice from muddying the waters.

Instead of talking to EVERYBODY in extremes about the dangers of certain behaviors...how about just framing it so those with a propensity for something deal with their "habit" more strictly than others who don't need to, and avoid everyone having to bow to the lowest common denominator?

I wish more things about church rules were "not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days".

I guess I think we should teach people more about habits, and avoid calling everything a sin that muddies things.

IDK. Maybe leaders have a larger view of things than I do, as they talk to lots of bishops who talk to lots of people and see lots of trends. I just think the "way" bishops talk to people is not always wise...and so that muddies the feedback to leaders from the source.

I have had lots of people say ARP is a good thing. I don't know what to make of it. I like the church providing resources, but it also seems they are adding to problems that need the resources to help. It's a chicken and egg type problem area, I think.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

AmyJ
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Re: You're not addicted

Post by AmyJ » 28 Sep 2017, 10:31

There are 2 parts to this problem...

1) Genuine Addicts who need the support and assistance and are too prideful to ask/associate with it. Sometimes it takes a "Come to Jesus" moment to get through that pride. There is probably a sub-group that could handle their challenges without this assistance, but I think it is rarer than common, personally.

2) Casual users who get branded as "addicts" by people making more of the problem than it actually is. The blatant example is divorces over p usage - and only for p usage.

I think we don't tell our youth that there will need to be a series of conversations about this topic throughout their marriage. I think we treat it as "out of sight, out of mind". Maybe we don't have neutral conversations giving the head's up in regards to the situation because it is such a charged topic, or maybe because there is no good way of doing so.

I haven't taken a gospel marriage or family relations course, but when I was in YW (15 years ago) we didn't talk about serious relationship conversations we would be having with our spouses. All of this was just... left out.

P.S. If I am ever called to teach the laurels in YW, I am going to borrow stuff from the "Marriage Builders" website and I am going to devote at least 1 lesson a quarter on effective inter-spousal/boyfriend communication techniques. I am going to see what kind of YW I have and see what kinds of conversations I can comfortably and respectfully have.... Which is probably why they know better than to call me for YW.

DancingCarrot
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Re: You're not addicted

Post by DancingCarrot » 28 Sep 2017, 19:51

I see at least a few intersections regarding this topic.

- Healthy sexual expression is not talked about in church, except when it's framed as a list of Don't Until You Can - In Marriage. Even after that, there is no clear, helpful, healthy way forward. I am not advocating that the church become a bastion of healthy human sexuality, but it's a tough wall to scale.
- To add to the above, the culture makes up for the silence on sexuality by both hypersexualizing both genders, and suppressing appropriate sexual expression. This is also done in the West/American/Puritan culture at large, as other countries don't have the same issues with sexuality as we do. Women get hypersexualized by having decidedly non-sexual body parts deemed sexual, but they also don't have an independent sexuality (separate from their husband and beginning before marriage). Men are hypersexualized in the sense that they're told their sexual urges are quite ravenous and need to be squelched until they have a release in marriage.
- It is normal for humans to be aroused by images, physical touch, stories, and fantasies. In fact, it's considered abnormal if someone is incapable of being aroused. It's also considered abnormal to be aroused by most things. Being aroused by arouseable things isn't a problem; how you personally deal with your arousal CAN be a problem.
- The hypersexualization and following sexual repression of men leads them to secret activities that inevitably feed the shame that they have before any sort of porn use. The perceived unsexuality of women leads them to secret activities that inevitably feed the shame they have before any sort of porn use.
- Especially for older singles, sexual expression is perceived as unacceptable and nearly non-existent. Like I said earlier, being aroused and expressing your own sexuality in healthy ways is normal and good, for married and single people alike. Church members have different beliefs and values to manage than the culture at large, but long-term sexual suppression is not healthy nor does it lead to mature adults who are capable of connected and fulfilling relationships. Other religions tend to sublimate their single and celibate members' sexuality through special callings and support groups, however the LDS church does not and it is taxing on those who don't know what to do.
It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live. -Dumbledore

Roll away your stone, I'll roll away mine. Together we can see what we will find. -Mumford & Sons

AmyJ
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Re: You're not addicted

Post by AmyJ » 29 Sep 2017, 09:04

DancingCarrot wrote:
28 Sep 2017, 19:51
I see at least a few intersections regarding this topic.

- Healthy sexual expression is not talked about in church, except when it's framed as a list of Don't Until You Can - In Marriage. Even after that, there is no clear, helpful, healthy way forward. I am not advocating that the church become a bastion of healthy human sexuality, but it's a tough wall to scale.
- To add to the above, the culture makes up for the silence on sexuality by both hypersexualizing both genders, and suppressing appropriate sexual expression. This is also done in the West/American/Puritan culture at large, as other countries don't have the same issues with sexuality as we do. Women get hypersexualized by having decidedly non-sexual body parts deemed sexual, but they also don't have an independent sexuality (separate from their husband and beginning before marriage). Men are hypersexualized in the sense that they're told their sexual urges are quite ravenous and need to be squelched until they have a release in marriage.
- It is normal for humans to be aroused by images, physical touch, stories, and fantasies. In fact, it's considered abnormal if someone is incapable of being aroused. It's also considered abnormal to be aroused by most things. Being aroused by arouseable things isn't a problem; how you personally deal with your arousal CAN be a problem.
- The hypersexualization and following sexual repression of men leads them to secret activities that inevitably feed the shame that they have before any sort of porn use. The perceived unsexuality of women leads them to secret activities that inevitably feed the shame they have before any sort of porn use.
- Especially for older singles, sexual expression is perceived as unacceptable and nearly non-existent. Like I said earlier, being aroused and expressing your own sexuality in healthy ways is normal and good, for married and single people alike. Church members have different beliefs and values to manage than the culture at large, but long-term sexual suppression is not healthy nor does it lead to mature adults who are capable of connected and fulfilling relationships. Other religions tend to sublimate their single and celibate members' sexuality through special callings and support groups, however the LDS church does not and it is taxing on those who don't know what to do.
This entire summary - thank you!!

ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS:
DancingCarrot wrote:
28 Sep 2017, 19:51
- Healthy sexual expression is not talked about in church, except when it's framed as a list of Don't Until You Can - In Marriage.
This is becoming a more visible problem as the conversations (and the expectations about when to have the conversations) about healthy sexual expression are now starting in Primary instead of YM/YW. Parents get the opportunity to present insights on this subjects before the parents were necessarily ready to do so as a form of inoculation measure.
DancingCarrot wrote:
28 Sep 2017, 19:51
Women get hypersexualized by having decidedly non-sexual body parts deemed sexual, but they also don't have an independent sexuality (separate from their husband and beginning before marriage).
I feel that single women have 3 forms of "independent" sexuality - either they are stereotyped as self-cloistered nuns, lesbians, or they are tramps. There is no middle ground. However, all 3 stereotypes are independent of a spouse.

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Heber13
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Re: You're not addicted

Post by Heber13 » 29 Sep 2017, 09:21

One psychologist wrote (here):
In addition to contributing to the stigma of addiction and deterring people from seeking treatment, research shows that shame is a strong predictor of relapse.

Still, the media perpetuates the myth that there is a right way and a wrong way to recover, and that treatment that is luxurious or comfortable is inherently bad. A recent article in the Hollywood Reporter, for example, quotes Hollywood producers, former actors, lawyers and other “experts” who believe that high-end treatment centers do a disservice by offering upscale amenities and holistic therapies such as neurofeedback and equine therapy. Despite a significant body of research showing that these therapies strengthen the relationship between therapist and client, improve long-term abstinence rates and increase treatment retention, the media sends the message that addicts deserve to suffer.

The myths about addiction are damaging not only to addicts and their families but to all of us. What if the many influential business leaders, inspirational artists, best-selling authors, and history-making politicians who join the ranks of recovering addicts were shamed into silence? By understanding addiction as a brain disease and allowing people to recover in the way that works best for them, we can make significant strides in addressing the nation’s leading public health problem.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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dande48
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Re: You're not addicted

Post by dande48 » 29 Sep 2017, 11:34

Good quote, Heber.
"Sir, it's quite possible this asteroid is not entirely stable." - C-3PO

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