DNA & Book of Mormon (GT)

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gospeltangents
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DNA & Book of Mormon (GT)

Post by gospeltangents » 21 Jul 2017, 08:04

David Rosenvall told me that the reason Native Americans don't have Middle Eastern DNA is because the Jaredites got here first. He says the Jaredites travelled through China first, and that's why Native Americans have Asian DNA, rather than Middle Eastern DNA. David is co-author of the theory that the Book of Mormon took place on the Baja Peninsula. What do you think of this theory? https://gospeltangents.com/2017/07/21/d ... l-answers/
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Re: DNA & Book of Mormon (GT)

Post by DoubtingTom » 21 Jul 2017, 08:48

I'm going to be blunt, so sorry if I offend anyone. I find these various theories soporific and somewhat silly. The theories pre-suppose so much and there is just no good solid evidence for any of them in my mind. Through a mix of parallelomania and mental gymnastica you can make some of these theories seem remotely plausible, but for me, the most likely explanation for the ancient origins of this continent is the one that science and archeology has verified over and over again.

I find a much more likely explanation for the Book of Mormon as thoroughly a product of the 19th century and simply not a historical record. Now, whether or not the book is inspired by God is up for the reader to decide and I will make no efforts to sway anyone in that regard.

For me, it is unquestionable that the book has inspired and continues to inspire millions for good. But as to the theories of its ancient origins, I have abandoned that ship, at least temporarily for now. Maybe more evidence will be uncovered in the future but based on what has been uncovered in the past 100 years and how it all points to an explanation other than a historical book, I choose to focus on the message of the book instead.

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Re: DNA & Book of Mormon (GT)

Post by Curt Sunshine » 21 Jul 2017, 08:53

Whether the book is a historical record or not, I have said for decades that the Book of Mormon itself argues for a large Asian DNA footprint from the Jaredites (who would have spread across the land for thousands of years, with the Book of Ether focusing only on the kingship families who remained in the capitol city region), and, at best, a tiny DNA footprint from the descendants of Lehi and Mulek (especially the Lamanites, who, I am convinced, mingled with native people who probably had dominant Asian genes). Nothing else makes sense given the actual BoM narrative and the population demographic statements.

The Nephites joined the Mulekites and still were MUCH smaller than the Lamanites. That makes sense if the Lamanites mingled with a larger, native population - and that mingling would account for the darker skin issue as a marker of godlessness (since the Nephites would see the inter-marrying as a sign of apostasy). If the Lamanites mingled soon after the original split (when there were only a few of them), there would be little DNA trace left after hundreds of years - much less now. Add in the breakdown of lineage-based -ites after the death of Jesus, and you would have a tiny Middle Eastern genetic heritage and a massive Asian genetic heritage.

Finally, if Sariah was Egyptian (which is a distinct possibility), her sons would not have had classic Israeli mitochondrial DNA. (If she was Lehi's second wife, after his first wife died, and if her sons were Sam and Nephi (or even only Nephi), it also would explain much of the dysfunctionality described in the family.) That last part is purely conjecture, but it would fit the account well and explain Lehi's Egyptian fluency - and being a merchant traveler would explain his ability to pack quickly, leave Jerusalem, and have some knowledge of proper desert travel.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Re: DNA & Book of Mormon (GT)

Post by gospeltangents » 21 Jul 2017, 14:30

most likely explanation for the ancient origins of this continent is the one that science and archeology has verified over and over again.
I think David would agree with you. He's simply trying to tie the science together. I'm not saying he's right, but I think his theory is very close to what Ray said. David's not ruling out a Bering Strait migration at all. Surely that could have happened. He's simply saying that the Jaredites travelled through China, likely mingled with some Chinese on the way, bobbed along the ocean as the currents from Japan to Southern California do, and that takes a year. So the Jaredites could well have travelled by boat, meeting up with Native Americans already here who walked across the Bering Strait 15,000 years ago.
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Re: DNA & Book of Mormon (GT)

Post by Curt Sunshine » 21 Jul 2017, 15:03

Yep, and my comment didn't even account for earlier people who crossed the Bering Strait. I usually include that, as well. (And, fwiw, I reached much of that conclusion on my own fairly early in life. I remember thinking, "This doesn't say what everyone thinks it says." My parents didn't get it, but they allowed me to be me.)

As I said in an earlier comment on the first Baja Peninsula post, I actually appreciate these theorists simply because they are forcing people to look at what the book itself actually says and implies, not what members and leaders (even Joseph Smith himself) assumed without studying it apart from its religious meaning.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Re: DNA & Book of Mormon (GT)

Post by dande48 » 21 Jul 2017, 17:22

I think you can re-adjust any evidence to support what you already believe. But I don't think that's a very wise or healthy approach.
In the end, if Joseph Smith was right, everybody has 100% American DNA. Even the Asians.
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Re: DNA & Book of Mormon (GT)

Post by gospeltangents » 21 Jul 2017, 18:46

I just got a note from Ugo Perego on this topic.
Although we don't know the exact date of arrival of the Jaredites to the Americas, the molecular, archeaological and carbon dating data predate them considerably by several thousands years.
Which seems to support what Ray said!
See my latest interviews on Mormon History, Science & Theology at www.gospeltangents.com

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