LDS TED Talk posted today

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amateurparent
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Re: LDS TED Talk posted today

Post by amateurparent »

There are some boys that do need to get away from (helicopter) parents for a bit and unwind in the woods now and then.
The girls don't get to unwind on camping trips. Girls Camp is one long youth conference/testimony meeting/journal writing event. It is a miserable experience. The culture and policies don't allow the girls to "unwind in the woods". The response I always hear is, "Well, it is the women leaders who decide. It isn't OUR fault if women don't want to have fun."

The problem with that particular response is that WOMEN and YOUNG WOMEN don't get to pick their leaders. Their leaders are assigned. Typically, in our stake, women are chosen who are going to provide a certain type of Girls Camp experience .. And not the fun one.
I have no advance degrees in parenting. No national credentials. I am an amateur parent. I read, study, and learn all I can to be the best parent possible. Every time I think I have reached expert status with one child for one stage in their life, something changes and I am back to amateur status again. Now when I really mess up, I just apologize to my child, and explain that I am indeed an amateur .. I'm still learning how to do this right.
Old-Timer
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Re: LDS TED Talk posted today

Post by Old-Timer »

Leadership roulette is a crap shoot, unfortunately - but it also is one of the glories of the LDS Church, imo.

My daughters generally have enjoyed Girls' Camp and have had times to relax and have fun - with an exception here and there. It sounds like you are in an area where rigid conservativism reigns supreme within the church culture, and that is a heavy burden for those who don't fit that mold.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Roy
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Re: LDS TED Talk posted today

Post by Roy »

amateurparent wrote:The girls don't get to unwind on camping trips. Girls Camp is one long youth conference/testimony meeting/journal writing event. It is a miserable experience. The culture and policies don't allow the girls to "unwind in the woods".
I also believe that how enjoyable the camp might be might also differ on the individual experiencing it. I know of missionaries that had a very difficult time in the MTC but thrived in the mission field. I also know of missionaries that were on a spiritual high in the MTC but struggled in the mission field.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Roy
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Re: LDS TED Talk posted today

Post by Roy »

university wrote:Men both today and then are not only allowed to attend the Relief Society's Session--they can enter with their wives, daughters, or by themselves---but some even "preside" over it and take an active role in speaking in it. Even though it's the "General Women''s Session" men still have a very powerful presence and influence in the meeting. Beyond this, the attendance policies are different. A husband wants to come see his wife speak? No problem. A wife wants to come see her husband speak? No, she's not allowed. She's a woman. And women aren't allowed at the Priesthood Session.
It just hit me that requiring a man to be present at woman's meetings may be a holdover from an earlier time. BY seemed to think that the Relief Society under Emma Smith had become subversive to the priesthood. He disbanded it during the migration and did not reorganize it for many years after settling in SLC. Perhaps a man is required to make sure that women are not teaching anything bothersome (like disparaging comments about polygamy).
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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Unknown
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Re: LDS TED Talk posted today

Post by Unknown »

Roy wrote: Perhaps a man is required to make sure that women are not teaching anything bothersome (like disparaging comments about polygamy).
Before Ordain Women I heard a few cases where women were practicing or imitating giving blessings in relief society just to see how it was done, not because they intended to actually give blessings. In fact, my uncle walked in on it when he was looking for his wife and was shocked. Now, I don't know that there is even anything wrong with what that group of sisters did, but I don't think a lot of priesthood leaders would approve. So there maybe some truth to what you say about oversight.
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mom3
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Re: LDS TED Talk posted today

Post by mom3 »

I will try to write this response with some restraint.

I am not an OW proponent. That said the wheel for LDS women is turning slower than anything else.

If certain practices are a hold over I no longer feel I can blame BY or Eliza R. Snow - I blame the LDS women of today. I blame the present curriculum department. The top Women's Leadership. The CEO of Deseret Book. The wives of GA's. BYU hiring policies. The conversation about Women's roles has been going on longer than OW. The path of Women's Standing was quietly shut down with no reason given, i.e. retraction of laying of hands, and RS being a separate entity, not a Priesthood Auxiliary.

I also don't believe OW helped as much as they would like to take credit for. I would give the credit for women praying in GC to FMH before OW. I think OW retrenched the problem. Their first attempt was bold. Too bold. If they really cared, they were smart enough to have set a different strategy. The top OW leadership loves to let us know their academic standing and career placement. All of that knowledge didn't save them from stupidity.

We needed OW's conversation, their choice to act robbed all of us of that.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman
amateurparent
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Re: LDS TED Talk posted today

Post by amateurparent »

Well stated Mom3!

OW used tactics that are successful in special interest group politics, but not in religions.
I have no advance degrees in parenting. No national credentials. I am an amateur parent. I read, study, and learn all I can to be the best parent possible. Every time I think I have reached expert status with one child for one stage in their life, something changes and I am back to amateur status again. Now when I really mess up, I just apologize to my child, and explain that I am indeed an amateur .. I'm still learning how to do this right.
university
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Re: LDS TED Talk posted today

Post by university »

I really appreciate your thoughts on this forum, Mom3 and AP, you've helped me a lot, but I think I respectfully disagree about OW. I hope you’ll show restraint with me as well. Let me say I’m not a member of it or anything like that. But I think their influence on what’s happened in the Church has actually been understated, at least in my circles.

I am reminded of a feed on my social media not so long ago. It was the story that broke the news that the Church had added a few women to some upper leadership committees. I was floored that these committees already didn’t have any female representation at all, but I digress. The point is, I remember reading the comments on the news story from faithful TBM’s celebrating the appointment. They were excited to see women added. However, time and time again, I read something along the lines of, “I’m so grateful that the Lord does things on his own time. This proves that the Lord is not influenced by protests or the aggravations of groups.” I remember thinking to myself, “Thou Doth Protest too much.” Nearly every-other comment had some passive-aggressive, non-specific mention of OW.

I absolutely agree in some ways there has been a retrenchment reaction to OW. However, I also believe that these conversations that you, Mom3, mentioned us needing, have been happening. They’ve been happening for years. With no change or impact. These conversations have fallen on deaf years, if fallen on any ears in the church leadership at all. Before OW, I didn’t see any movement in regards to giving women more influence in the Church or correcting some of our more overt sexist policies. From my perspective, it was only getting worse.

We have a hierarchal church system that rewards yes-men and yes-women. This makes it very hard to change anything from the ground at all, especially if it’s about issues that the leaders of the Church don’t see or are personally affected by (as is the case with women’s roles in the Church). I honestly do believe that much of the movement we’ve seen in regards to women’s roles recently (as minimal as it’s been) is a direct response to OW. It took external pressure (in the form of OW), bringing in the media and scrutiny of ‘the outside world’ for the Church to be put in a defensive position about its treatment of women, and thus, quietly correct some of its “policies” while roaring from the pulpit that it will not change its doctrine. Naturally, there’s been a lot of retrenchment. But some things-that are the most overtly sexist and have no direct tie to Ordination—have been corrected a bit. The Church will swear up and down that this is not a reaction to OW. To me, it feels like an obvious reaction. Also, with all this uproar, more people have come out of the woodwork to talk about smaller issues about sexism in the church that isn’t doctrinal and can be “fixed” without going directly against Church Leadership. It also sounds less “apostate-like” when you’ve got OW to compare it to. So I think OW has helped to create more of these conversations, while at the same time, causing some retrenchment.

Of course, I come from a YSA Ward perspective, and I think YSA Wards are often quite different from traditional wards. They tend to be more liberal and I honestly do think YSA Wards are reflective of the future membership of the Church.

With that said, I don’t think OW will have a major impact on the advancement of women’s roles in the Church. I’m reminded of the Suffrage movement of American and English women as they attempted to secure the vote for women. I specifically think back to women in England. They fought for decades for the right to vote. They organized peaceful protests, went to prison, lost their jobs, lost their husbands and children, and to no avail. Women lived their whole lives doing everything they could to try and secure the right to vote and then died before any traction could be made. Leadership simply refused to move. I honestly see a lot of similarities. Some women said that they sympathized but didn’t see the need for the vote—they wanted more protections in the workplace from sexual assault, etc. Then some of the suffragists became radicalized in England, dividing the movement between suffragists and sufferagettes. Sufferagettes bombed buildings. Resorting to violence—anything to get the attention of the men in power. It still didn’t work.

I argue that it took WWI—when most of the men were gone and women had to step up to take their leadership roles—that women were able to secure the right to vote and the rights of women improved significantly in England. Sometimes I think God works in mysterious ways. Maybe this phenomenon of women outnumbering men in the church—and likely to continue to outnumber men in larger numbers, will bring some change. The fact that we can anticipate a larger generation of bright, single, adult women who are active participants in the church as a bigger percentage of church participants than ever before might help make some traction about the role of women in the church. You can only tell a congregation that a women’s role is “motherhood” so many times when a sizable portion of it is made up of single women and there aren’t enough men to fill all the callings traditionally reserved for men. But I suppose that’s wishful thinking on my part.
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mom3
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Re: LDS TED Talk posted today

Post by mom3 »

University - I will reply in a bit, I just had neighbors drop by as I started to type this. In short there is much in your post I agree with. Thanks - Young Blood is good for us.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman
amateurparent
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Re: LDS TED Talk posted today

Post by amateurparent »

OW had a huge impact on the church. My previous comment was not trying to say that they did not. There were things within the church that were changed because of OW. Good things. OW also made some things more suspect. Not everything they touched was changed for the better. Their approach was the sort of approach that is seen in political actions -- like the suffragettes. Or NOW.

Within a religious community, it had very mixed results. The biggest problem, OW forgot about the huge PR machine that the church runs with essentially an unlimited budget. OW is now viewed with hate in too many circles. Their successes in embarrassing the church and pushing changes also managed to annihilate their own organization. Was it worth the price? Time will tell.

University, you mentioned that YSA wards tend to be more liberal. Do you think they are more liberal, or just more open about their beliefs at this point in their lives?

I ask because when someone hears that I went to BYU for my first degree and was married in the temple, I get filed away under TBM.. From those few little details of information, too often someone will fill in all the blanks in my life story without knowing me. They see a mom at church who is wearing church appropriate clothing. They don't know me and they miss all the details that matter.
I have no advance degrees in parenting. No national credentials. I am an amateur parent. I read, study, and learn all I can to be the best parent possible. Every time I think I have reached expert status with one child for one stage in their life, something changes and I am back to amateur status again. Now when I really mess up, I just apologize to my child, and explain that I am indeed an amateur .. I'm still learning how to do this right.
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