Okay, here is my shot at it. I have YSA age daughters and I agree that the age group will take things into a different course. Time will tell what that means. I see them having the internal tug of wars about many things. What I also see is this is a group who won't be coerced into participation.
One of the multiple challenges of comparing OW to Suffrage is the comparable history. The women of Suffrage were fighting a first time battle. They weren't resurrecting lost privileges.
LDS Women's Issue is a two pronged problem. It's the fight for something we've never had and the fight to restore or acknowledge what was lost and why. In my opinion OW's actions snuffed those out, for a long time.
You point out that Women's issues have been in the debate center for a long time. I agree. I think the issues behind Suffrage had been in debate for a long time. I am referencing Abigail Adams as one example. As a woman who would like LDS women to feel empowered and live up to their own personal, God-given potential (and I don't mean baby making), I didn't appreciate the lack of consideration OW had for women itself. They were so bold and decided not only to storm the castle, but to annihilate other sisters, and other sisters voices along the way. It was that annihilation and disrespect for their sisters that cooled my respect for them.
Only after their bold moves had failed and the church took a heavy hand did they decide to do a more measured push. In my mind, if they cared about sister's gaining the fulfillment of Joseph's ideals they should have started with articles in Dialogue, the Christmas Billboards, the website about the past where they have quotes about RS women giving blessings. And not blasted a podcast of women who saw the issue differently. OW did not represent a large body of women.
I also stand in my original response that the problems of conversation and growth do also lie with present day women, who have the ear of male leaders. I am disheartened that Sheri Dew, a history major, former RS General Presidency councilor, and now CEO of Deseret book has chosen to overlook the type of work the Eliza R. Snow and others did to keep Joseph's plan alive. We have journals, former RS magazines, etc. that tell the stories of the work, but they are not included in books or talks from her.
I am saddened that 2 women who were single for many years, who were bread winners and successful as single LDS women, but are now GA's wives have just quietly morphed into props.
This entire mess is very complicated. It will take years to unhinge it.
The final reason I can't give OW the full credit they like to take is because I know that blogs like BCC, Wheat and Tares, FMH, Zeleophad's Daughters and others did a lot of ground work and posts that also affected the change of prayers in GC, and pants to church Sundays, Women's history of laying on of hands, and more.
I don't despise OW, even though this may sound that way. I am disappointed they could have brought something to the table. Something strong but not damaging. They chose differently. I wish they hadn't.
LDS TED Talk posted today
Re: LDS TED Talk posted today
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview
"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman
"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman
Re: LDS TED Talk posted today
I believe that in the context of a TED Talk she had to be able to point to some results of her efforts.
She said that one of the things she is trying to combat is apathy on the side of the secular minded. They were saying stuff to her to the effect of "Religions will always be sexist/homophobic - just leave if you don't like it." She had to point to results ... to progress in order to discredit that assertion.
She said that one of the things she is trying to combat is apathy on the side of the secular minded. They were saying stuff to her to the effect of "Religions will always be sexist/homophobic - just leave if you don't like it." She had to point to results ... to progress in order to discredit that assertion.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Re: LDS TED Talk posted today
Roy - You raise an accurate point. In life as well as in a 15 min TED talk, you look for and need concrete results. She is doing that, and those results did happen around the same time and I will never know what or who helped get it all done.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview
"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman
"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman
- SilentDawning
- Posts: 7602
- Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55
Re: LDS TED Talk posted today
I would like to know what everyone thinks is the evidence of OW's impact on the church? How can we attribute the changes made to the composition of upper leadership committees, and other changes, to OW's activism? Particularly when, as university said, we have brethren roaring from the pulpit to the contrary (or implied)?
I would LOVE to know that it was the OW that made the impact. To me, that would breathe life into my relationship with the church, which I would see as a bit less authoritarian, and a bit more open-minded and temporal, as I believe it is (in spite of its roaring to the contrary). It would also show at least some recompense for Kate Kelly's excommunication and the sacrifices other women had to make during that season.
I would LOVE to know that it was the OW that made the impact. To me, that would breathe life into my relationship with the church, which I would see as a bit less authoritarian, and a bit more open-minded and temporal, as I believe it is (in spite of its roaring to the contrary). It would also show at least some recompense for Kate Kelly's excommunication and the sacrifices other women had to make during that season.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young
"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young
"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
Re: LDS TED Talk posted today
It means more to me, MUCH more, that nearly all of the movement has come from regular members expressing their opinions in ways that are direct but balanced - like online at FMH, BCC, Times & Seasons, Wheat and Tares, StayLDS.com, etc.
That gives me hope in a measured, charitable approach - and it fits the facts and chronology much better than attributing it to Ordain Women.
That gives me hope in a measured, charitable approach - and it fits the facts and chronology much better than attributing it to Ordain Women.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
- SilentDawning
- Posts: 7602
- Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55
Re: LDS TED Talk posted today
I tend to agree. I made a post elsewhere indicating that the bloggernacle provides a feedback mechanism for the church where they can get naked feedback without sacrificing the top down nature of the culture. Also it is dispersed and not really a coordinated movement, just comments without calls to action that might scare church leaders. Would u say there are clear leaders of the bloggernacle? At one time John dehlin seemed to be that figurehead, but I am not sure if that is so any longer.
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young
"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young
"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
Re: LDS TED Talk posted today
I think it is important that there be no figurehead. John Dehlin was not somebody that the church could tolerate. Ordain Women was a "fringe activist group" that can be dismissed by church leadership. The bloggernacle when taken as a whole can give a read on the pulse of the membership (at least the LDS active and internet active membership). The church changes when the membership changes.SilentDawning wrote:I tend to agree. I made a post elsewhere indicating that the bloggernacle provides a feedback mechanism for the church where they can get naked feedback without sacrificing the top down nature of the culture. Also it is dispersed and not really a coordinated movement, just comments without calls to action that might scare church leaders. Would u say there are clear leaders of the bloggernacle? At one time John dehlin seemed to be that figurehead, but I am not sure if that is so any longer.
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Re: LDS TED Talk posted today
I have watched the bloggernacle for years and I don't see a leader. Before or now. I believe we have some very long standing blogs that have been influential but I don't see one person as ever being a figurehead. I think the leaders of blogs have changed or the prominent posters rotate in and out. I like that I see it as organic not an influenced by a team or person.Would u say there are clear leaders of the bloggernacle? At one time John dehlin seemed to be that figurehead, but I am not sure if that is so any longer.
In my mind Dehlin was the podcast king. He really generated the podcast world. He started many of them and inspired others to add podcasts to their forums. And he was deeply influential. I believe many on the bloggernacle loved his work during the early years. It allowed topics to move farther, discussions to touch more distant places. You could listen to a podcast in the car, at the gym, doing chores. This allowed the blog messages and John's work to go hand in hand. However that began to change around 5 years into it. The marriage didn't always work, pretty soon they parted ways and now we know the rest of the story.
Looking at the recent history I find if I want to influence my religion I do best when I am not a threat to it or the people who practice it. When people don't feel threatened they are more willing to consider. But if any of us feels threatened we defend. It doesn't matter if our place is rational or not, we defend, at any cost. In the long run that hurts everyone.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview
"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman
"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman
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- Posts: 150
- Joined: 15 Mar 2014, 17:19
Re: LDS TED Talk posted today
I'm late in the game but read the replies and just wanted to add this thought:
I agree with much of what most of you have said. I still believe that Ordain Woman forced the church (and it's membership) to reflect more deeply on the role of women in the church by means of being so controversial and bringing in scrutiny from the media. Although, I do think some of you might agree with that. I think some of you are coming from the perspective that too much credit is given to OW. Where I am, and in my circles, they get none--it's still the same line about the Church not being influenced by protests at all. I get this reaction from TBM and non-mormons alike. However, It's plain as day to me that OW has caused some movement (as well as major defensiveness) from the Church. They've forced some level of introspection. They've brought the conversation into the limelight.
In a way, OW has alienated a lot of people. But that's kind of the point with groups like this. It makes the less "extreme" views more tolerable. And I don't believe these kinds of conversations would have happened without OW calling attention to women's issues.
However, with that said, when it comes to OW, it's kind of a chicken or the egg situation for me. I think with the way women are advancing in American society, in which we are coming closer to equality and respect in the workplace, and succeed quite well in higher education, contrasted with the way the Church talks about and views women, there was bound to be something like this. And it's been long enough since the September Six for there need to be a release.
I agree with much of what most of you have said. I still believe that Ordain Woman forced the church (and it's membership) to reflect more deeply on the role of women in the church by means of being so controversial and bringing in scrutiny from the media. Although, I do think some of you might agree with that. I think some of you are coming from the perspective that too much credit is given to OW. Where I am, and in my circles, they get none--it's still the same line about the Church not being influenced by protests at all. I get this reaction from TBM and non-mormons alike. However, It's plain as day to me that OW has caused some movement (as well as major defensiveness) from the Church. They've forced some level of introspection. They've brought the conversation into the limelight.
In a way, OW has alienated a lot of people. But that's kind of the point with groups like this. It makes the less "extreme" views more tolerable. And I don't believe these kinds of conversations would have happened without OW calling attention to women's issues.
However, with that said, when it comes to OW, it's kind of a chicken or the egg situation for me. I think with the way women are advancing in American society, in which we are coming closer to equality and respect in the workplace, and succeed quite well in higher education, contrasted with the way the Church talks about and views women, there was bound to be something like this. And it's been long enough since the September Six for there need to be a release.
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- Posts: 150
- Joined: 15 Mar 2014, 17:19
Re: LDS TED Talk posted today
Yes and no.amateurparent wrote: University, you mentioned that YSA wards tend to be more liberal. Do you think they are more liberal, or just more open about their beliefs at this point in their lives?
I ask because when someone hears that I went to BYU for my first degree and was married in the temple, I get filed away under TBM.. From those few little details of information, too often someone will fill in all the blanks in my life story without knowing me. They see a mom at church who is wearing church appropriate clothing. They don't know me and they miss all the details that matter.
I mostly say this because, in my experience, YSA Mormons are generally more liberal than other demographics. This isn't just limited to Mormons. For me, this is generally true of most Americans in the young adult demographic. It's just a generational difference. Millennials are more tolerant. We have our flaws, yes, but in my opinion, our tolerance is a strength.
I do think my generation's mantra in the Church is "Judge Less, Love More." I'm reminded of the famous "Tattooed Mormon" Al Fox. I recall seeing some older Mormons, even just a decade or so older than me, rejoicing in the Church's acceptance of her, as if this was a sign of progress. To me it was a no-brainer. I didn't get what the fuss was about. I think she's kind of the symbolic face of the future of the Church.
However, I also do believe the YSA generation, even in the Mormon circles, is influenced by the "You do you, I do me" culture, which focuses less on obedience and conformity. So perhaps, yes, we're just more open with our beliefs.
I will say, though, that I had a remarkable YSA Bishop a few years ago who was there for me when I had the onset of my faith crisis (at the time it was very much a crisis). We had conversations about women's roles in the Church--how he made efforts to make things more inclusive for women in the ward leadership. He even straight up told me once that the Church Leadership has to change and will change. We talked about how the Church is no longer a Church for white men in Utah and will eventually have to adapt to be more inclusive of women and the world--let me also say that he didn't support female ordination and is against gay marriage. But do you see where I'm going with this? Of course, this man was a rarity, definitely won leadership roulette there, but in our conversations he expressed that some of the issues I mentioned came up a lot for him with a lot of other YSAs. I took his word for it.
With that said I think a lot of my generation is leaving or fading away from the Church. Maybe I'm just overestimating this but I really think this is true. Conversations with TBM's who don't know I'm kind of disaffected and have access to their "inactive" lists confirm that there is a really high rate of inactivity in my age group. Of course, I think this is kind of natural for YSA members but it may be more of a problem now than it's been before. I have no way of knowing.