I found this to be a very interesting interview, and one of many excellent references coming from Mormon Matters. Dan talks about his many year journey through a faith crisis and ending up firmly planted in Mormonism. It gets more interesting toward the end, I was surprised at some of the ways, and frankly how strongly Dan defends Joseph Smith's role as prophet. He is a promoter of complexity and richness in spiritual life. He gives a list of books that helped him see some things in a new light.
Dan has talked about his own journey many times but I found new details in this interview. It is a rich resource for those of us looking for new and meaningful ways to view our tradition.
http://mormonmatters.org/2015/09/15/293 ... mormonism/
They did not talk about the fishbowl analogy but it has been on my mind and a couple things clicked or were affirmed as I listened. It is given in terms of Fowler's stages of faith: stage 3 is compared to fish in the bowl not realizing anything exists outside the fishbowl. Stage 4 jumps out of the bowl and says: "you lied to me! Life exists outside the fishbowl! What you call universal truth is a sham, we can see it's nonsense from out here! Stage 5 understands life both inside and outside the fishbowl, and uses appropriate language for each setting. While stage 4 was too fresh to appreciate a trip back into the fishbowl, stage 5 values time being submerged in the bowl and reflects on the rich symbolism while there. Stage 5 has no problem affirming the truths of the bowl while submerged there, and does not force a correlation between bowl truths and "external" truths. The freedom is felt to be fully of the bowl while in there, and it does not invalidate the authenticity of the "out of the bowl" reality. In fact with time the distinction grows fuzzier and less important because life in the bowl is on it's own plane and would not logically conflict with life outside.
Dan Wotherspoon interview - Mormon Matters
Dan Wotherspoon interview - Mormon Matters
My avatar - both physical and spiritual.
I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.
I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.
- LookingHard
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Re: Dan Wotherspoon interview - Mormon Matters
I liked the back and forth between the two and I really like the fact that these two I think generally get along well together. A model of what many in the church and exmo's should be following.
I kept feeling the I WISHED I could feel like Dan and still I see things generally from John's point of view. I am very much getting over the anger part of a faith crisis and moving to where I can look at the church from a bit of a distance without being all that upset. Then I attend and hear someone quote something that just really rubs me hard. I actually would really like to take a bit of time away from church and figure some of this out without the constant abrasion. But I know the turmoil that would cause and I have decided not to - at this time.
The fishbowl analogy smells fishy to me. Joking aside, I don't think that I get it. I don't get how Dan honestly does what he does.
My journey is nowhere near done.
I kept feeling the I WISHED I could feel like Dan and still I see things generally from John's point of view. I am very much getting over the anger part of a faith crisis and moving to where I can look at the church from a bit of a distance without being all that upset. Then I attend and hear someone quote something that just really rubs me hard. I actually would really like to take a bit of time away from church and figure some of this out without the constant abrasion. But I know the turmoil that would cause and I have decided not to - at this time.
The fishbowl analogy smells fishy to me. Joking aside, I don't think that I get it. I don't get how Dan honestly does what he does.
My journey is nowhere near done.
Re: Dan Wotherspoon interview - Mormon Matters
I think it has to do with symbols, meanings, and verifiable proof vs. personal truth. The challenge is to overcome the shock of first escaping the fishbowl.LookingHard wrote: The fishbowl analogy smells fishy to me. Joking aside, I don't think that I get it. I don't get how Dan honestly does what he does.
My journey is nowhere near done.
My avatar - both physical and spiritual.
I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.
I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.
Re: Dan Wotherspoon interview - Mormon Matters
I don't really have anything to add - just that I liked the discussion between two old friends who are trying not to become new antagonists.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell
"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust
"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11
"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust
"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11
Re: Dan Wotherspoon interview - Mormon Matters
Yes Ann, it is also a good example of how to disagree with someone, even passionately, without letting that drag you down.
At one time I wanted to jump into the discussion and say "Guys it's right in front of your nose! Everyone thinks their way of thinking is the right and best way -- otherwise they wouldn't hold their position!!"
They were both seeking a form of validation for their own position when they should have ended it with "obviously I am going to think my ideas are most right while you will think your ideas are. There is no way around that." Dan was getting there, and may have said something very similar.
At one time I wanted to jump into the discussion and say "Guys it's right in front of your nose! Everyone thinks their way of thinking is the right and best way -- otherwise they wouldn't hold their position!!"
They were both seeking a form of validation for their own position when they should have ended it with "obviously I am going to think my ideas are most right while you will think your ideas are. There is no way around that." Dan was getting there, and may have said something very similar.
My avatar - both physical and spiritual.
I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.
I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.
Re: Dan Wotherspoon interview - Mormon Matters
I'm listening to Mormon Stories Ep. 569-570 where Dan is interviewing John. Then I will listen to these where John interviews Dan.
I think so far, perhaps it is not the right timing to interview John. After his ex-communication...he is surely to be more bitter and negative about the church, using stark words like "Joseph was a fraud"...whereas his podcasts in the past were not as harsh or one-sided. I think it is timing. Last year was rough for John. Then again, John isn't neutral...so this is showing more of his colors.
I find it interesting stuff.
I think so far, perhaps it is not the right timing to interview John. After his ex-communication...he is surely to be more bitter and negative about the church, using stark words like "Joseph was a fraud"...whereas his podcasts in the past were not as harsh or one-sided. I think it is timing. Last year was rough for John. Then again, John isn't neutral...so this is showing more of his colors.
I find it interesting stuff.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."