"Forbes" Ranks BYU No. 1 as Best Value College in America

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DarkJedi
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Re: "Forbes" Ranks BYU No. 1 as Best Value College in America

Post by DarkJedi » 05 May 2019, 11:18

But when serving better in the church is put forward as the only reason for why the prophet/church likes education, I have a problem with that.
But you and I both know very well that wasn't his only reason SD - unless you can prove otherwise.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Roy
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Re: "Forbes" Ranks BYU No. 1 as Best Value College in America

Post by Roy » 05 May 2019, 11:26

I suppose it would be somewhat strange if an organization did something that didn't benefit its continued existence either directly or indirectly. I suppose there can be some exceptions but as a general rule that is what organizations do.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

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dande48
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Re: "Forbes" Ranks BYU No. 1 as Best Value College in America

Post by dande48 » 05 May 2019, 13:42

Roy wrote:
05 May 2019, 11:26
I suppose it would be somewhat strange if an organization did something that didn't benefit its continued existence either directly or indirectly. I suppose there can be some exceptions but as a general rule that is what organizations do.
It's "survival of the fittest". But I still wish they would, and greatly respect any organization that make an effort to reach out and "do good" without any thought of their own reciprocal benefit. And it still makes me very hesitant to praise any organzation for doing something which is ultimately self-serving.

Tying back in with the OP, I have a hard time seeing it as "Best Value" from my own personal experience. Your milage may vary. But I think the ranking came from very specific numerics, that didn't consider a lot of factors. I think using very similar metrics, Forbes could declare the LDS Church "Best Value Religion in the Word". I'm still hestitant to recommend it.
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thegreythinker
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Re: "Forbes" Ranks BYU No. 1 as Best Value College in America

Post by thegreythinker » 05 May 2019, 15:44

I found the quote that SD was talking about. It's in words of a prophet under "The Lord wants you to be educated" second paragraph

https://www.lds.org/study/new-era/2007/ ... g?lang=eng

"Inaddition, your education will strengthen your service in the Church"
dande48 wrote:
05 May 2019, 13:42


Tying back in with the OP, I have a hard time seeing it as "Best Value" from my own personal experience. Your milage may vary. But I think the ranking came from very specific numerics, that didn't consider a lot of factors. I think using very similar metrics, Forbes could declare the LDS Church "Best Value Religion in the Word". I'm still hestitant to recommend it.
I wouldn't recommend BYU either even though I've never been there. Having heard some of my friends and family talk about their experiences there, to me the bad outweighs the good.

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Re: "Forbes" Ranks BYU No. 1 as Best Value College in America

Post by Curt Sunshine » 05 May 2019, 21:26

Sorry, SD, but you were dead wrong about what GBH said. I read the entire thing. He listed multiple reasons education is important, and he said church service was an additional reason. He also emphasized that "girls" be educated, as well, in any area they want.

The talk makes my earlier point: Education is stressed as being a core part of being a child of God and being like God - and, in addition, leaders believe it will strengthen members in the Church. By comparison, they believe lack of education (ignorance) is bad.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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dande48
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Re: "Forbes" Ranks BYU No. 1 as Best Value College in America

Post by dande48 » 05 May 2019, 22:15

I found this article, written by Boyd K Packer, called "The Mantle is Far, Far Greater than the Intellect", back in 1981. In fairness, it is geared towards seminary and Church history (~40 years ago), but I think a lot of the points apply to other academics and general Church policy.
In an effort to be objective, impartial, and scholarly, a writer or a teacher may unwittingly be giving equal time to the adversary.
"There are plenty of scholars in the world determined to find all secular truth. There are so few of us, relatively speaking, striving to convey the spiritual truths, who are protecting the Church. We cannot safely be neutral."
"Those who have carefully purged their work of any religious faith in the name of academic freedom or so-called honesty ought not expect to be accommodated in their researches or to be paid by the Church to do it."
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
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Re: "Forbes" Ranks BYU No. 1 as Best Value College in America

Post by DarkJedi » 06 May 2019, 07:58

thegreythinker wrote:
05 May 2019, 15:44
I wouldn't recommend BYU either even though I've never been there. Having heard some of my friends and family talk about their experiences there, to me the bad outweighs the good.
And I think that's a personal decision we all need to make about any university (or job). BYU is not for everybody. Neither is Harvard. Neither is Utah Valley University. Whether or not a university is a "best value" is only one consideration. Forbes isn't saying anything about what college life is like at BYU because that's not their concern. What they are saying is that it's a good price for the education one receives there.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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DarkJedi
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Re: "Forbes" Ranks BYU No. 1 as Best Value College in America

Post by DarkJedi » 06 May 2019, 08:02

dande48 wrote:
05 May 2019, 22:15
I found this article, written by Boyd K Packer, called "The Mantle is Far, Far Greater than the Intellect", back in 1981. In fairness, it is geared towards seminary and Church history (~40 years ago), but I think a lot of the points apply to other academics and general Church policy.
In an effort to be objective, impartial, and scholarly, a writer or a teacher may unwittingly be giving equal time to the adversary.
"There are plenty of scholars in the world determined to find all secular truth. There are so few of us, relatively speaking, striving to convey the spiritual truths, who are protecting the Church. We cannot safely be neutral."
"Those who have carefully purged their work of any religious faith in the name of academic freedom or so-called honesty ought not expect to be accommodated in their researches or to be paid by the Church to do it."
...forty years ago. This is still past tense. You might as well dig up Joseph Fielding Smith and that man will never walk on the moon.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

Curt Sunshine
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Re: "Forbes" Ranks BYU No. 1 as Best Value College in America

Post by Curt Sunshine » 06 May 2019, 08:30

Official Church History study has changed dramatically in the last 10-15 years.

However, even if it hadn't, there is a HUGE difference between instruction to Seminary teachers and views on education in general. I appreciate that you made that point in your comment, dande48, but I just want to stress it again.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SamBee
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Re: "Forbes" Ranks BYU No. 1 as Best Value College in America

Post by SamBee » 06 May 2019, 11:18

At my university, the main leisure activities seem to have been drinking and sex. I had too much of the former and too little of the latter...

What a contrast to BYU!

BYU seems to have better campuses and sport facilities than where I went to, but on the other hand my tuition fees were paid for by the government.

I think as a young person, going to BYU would not have been my first choice, but as an older wiser person I can see the attractions.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
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